Gerard Baden-Clay-How does the Puzzle look on MEANS?


Murder shall be taken to have been committed where the act of the accused, or thing by him or her omitted to be done, causing the death charged, was done or omitted with reckless indifference to human life, or with intent to kill or inflict grievous bodily harm upon some person, or done in an attempt to commit, or during or immediately after the commission, by the accused, or some accomplice with him or her, of a crime…

This high profile case has captured the imagination of everybody it seems. From the day Allison went missing,  the suspicious behaviour of her husband, to the search, The discovery of her body, The funeral, The investigation, The media, and Arrest which came from nowhere and then the Bail application, the Bomb Threat, then Bail was denied and now GBC is on remand in Jail

So here we are many months later and what do we have. We obviously have a highly circumstantial case of Murder against Gerard Baden-Clay at the moment.

I think any ONE aspect taken in isolation could be seen to be suspicious.

But as one links all the pieces together they start to paint a much bigger picture.

Means, Motive, and Opportunity is a popular cultural summation of the three aspects of a crime needed to convince a jury of guilt in a criminal proceeding. Respectively, they refer to: the ability of the defendant to commit the crime (means), the reason the defendant had to commit the crime (motive), and whether or not the defendant had the chance to commit the crime (opportunity). Opportunity is most often disproved by use of an alibi, which can prove the accused was not able to commit the crime as he or she did not have the correct set of circumstances to commit the crime. Ironically, motive is not an element of many crimes, but proving motive can often make it easier to convince a jury of the elements that must be proved for a conviction. Furthermore, a showing of the presence of these three elements is not, in and of itself, sufficient to convict beyond a reasonable doubt; the evidence must prove that an opportunity presented was indeed taken by the accused and for the crime with which he or she is charged.

Motive, that being the massive financial debt, the affairs and the promise to leave his wife to his mistress, Toni McHugh.

Opportunity, did Gerard have the opportunity to murder his wife. Could of someone else done it? Was he helped in anyway?

Means, if he did murder her, How did he go about it. How was she killed?, where was she killed?, When did it happen?, Where was she taken? The list goes on.

The pieces of clues to this puzzle are significant and reach wide. We are going to have a go at documenting them right here folks UNDER THE FOLLOWING HEADINGS

MEANS

If he did murder her, How did he go about it. How was she killed?, where was she killed?, When did it happen?, Where was she taken?

PLEASE KEEP ALL DISCUSSION ON THIS THREAD TO THIS SUBJECT ONLY

I will use my discretion and delete irrelevant comments

MOTIVE thread

OPPORTUNITY thread

MEANS thread

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151 thoughts on “Gerard Baden-Clay-How does the Puzzle look on MEANS?

  1. XD at 2.10pm July 2 on MOTIVE
    has expressed much the same thoughts regarding having possibly two attempts at killing Allison. One at home where she was rendered unconscious and the second when she comes to in the car.
    And starts screaming.
    Ever get the feeling we getting close?
    From different angles?
    Ever get the feeling like are talking with “old friends” here?

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  2. Hi Zim, I would like to put a few of my thoughts forward on some aspects of your theory. It has been reported that GBC and TM were openly seeing each other and he had been seen leaving her house often and even dining out with mutual acquaintances of his and Allison’s. A person concerned about pride or whatever with regards to a divorce wouldn’t be cat-shagging around so publicly if he was concerned about that (in my opinion).

    It is also know he had a deadline (his, hers, or financial dictates) to have “left” Allison to be with TM. “Left” in TM’s eyes may have meant he would walk out on Allison by that stage (1st July), in GBC’s eyes I think it meant murder. I think the entire crux of this case is GBC’s debts and his inability to pay up without cashing in on Allison’s super and insurance policies. He may have thought his communications with the insurance company were low key, ditto the insurance claim on the day she was found (and not yet ID’d) but I seriously think he and the fam had no idea how big this case would become to the public nor the fact that police check if there are insurance policies on most types of murder situations, especially if they suspect a spouse. Dumb, naive or arrogant? Or all 3. Doesn’t change the outcome any though.

    Have you any links Zim that say GBC was going to the conference too? I seem to recall that one of the few things GBC told the police when they first arrived was that he was concerned about her lateness in coming home from the walk because she should already have been on her way by then? I would have thought if he was going they would go together and that they would have made arrangements for the kids to be with grandparents or friends for the night. Your thoughts on this?

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  3. Ozmosis, you are right. I stand corrected, have just gone and reread timelines etc it is reported that wife and mistress were attending the same conference, no mention of him. I just assumed they were all going to the conference together…. :-(

    Pugville, I now think he first attempted to kill her at home, she perhaps came to and he had to do it ‘right’ elsewhere.

    But then we do not know….

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  4. Zim, I think we will be waiting for the trial before we hear most of anything. What happens after the committal mention tomorrow? Presumably the prosecution don’t have to let any more facts out at that time?

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  5. Courtesy of the Courier Mail today
    Gerard Baden-Clay has had several visitors since being jailed, including from high-profile criminal lawyers Chris Nyst and Michael Bosscher.However, it is understood only his original solicitor, Darren Mahony, has been retained, along with barrister Peter Davis SC.

    I wonder if the Courier Mail knows something that we don’t. I didnt think Baden Clay could afford the three of them plus I could never see it working 3 lawyers, with 3 totally different styles…

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  6. Can anyone remember who posted this, & when (on which thread)?
    “Spotted the Bwanna car on rafting ground road this morning corner of Westridge St Brookfield parked at 8.30 am with Mr and Mrs Bwanna”

    Would this location be near Theorist’s description of the location off Rafting Ground Rd which features in the theory described earlier?

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  7. There have been many theories on what and how the murder may have been committed but not much as to why the blood is only on the wheel hubs but not where the body would have been in the vehicle. Does anyone have any ideas?

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  8. Jen -July 7, 2012 at 6:38 pm- blood is only on the wheel hubs but not where the body would have been in the vehicle …could be as simple as a tarp- he put down, and the hubs were outside the tarp area. Or it was behind some covers and he missed cleaning it- as he is a genius! ;-)

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  9. Do you get blood on wheel caps when you run a unconscious body over, deliberately or inadvertently in the dark when the one dragging the body doesn’t co-ordinate well with the getaway driver and has the body half in the back seat as the car is hurriedly pulling away and it falls out? Does the squashed body scream? Does it grip the car door handle as it thrashes around? Does it leave ‘caterpillar’ marks on close-by objects?

    PS: It’s getting too hard to find the current thread from the first web page here, and where is stuff on Max Sica other than his picture on a linked page?

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  10. I think the video call can’t be used against Nige or GBC as proof they collaborated. I would imagine it is more to show just how many odd things GBC did the night and morning she went missing. If he says she didn’t return from her morning walk then he really didn’t have to say he slept like a log all night. Now that it shows he didn’t sleep it shows him up to be a liar. So you have to wonder why he is lying. No wonder the cops were suspicious right form the moment they arrived at the house. All these things add up to point the finger at him.

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  11. Thank you Zim!!

    Sasha said it: July 2, 2012 at 5:34 pm: “Spotted the Bwanna car on rafting ground road this morning corner of Westridge St Brookfield parked at 8.30 am with Mr and Mrs Bwanna looking a bit bemused and staring into the distance. It seemed bit strange to me?”

    I have looked on whereis.com but it does not look to me as if the corner of Westside St and Rafting Ground Rd is very close to the creek area that

    Theorist mentioned as a possible initial dumping spot late last night at 11:52pm: “Often when someones breathing is cut off, the first thing to happen is the person will black out. This is what I think happened. She was out cold, but still alive.
    He put her into the car chipping one of her teeth as he struggled with her limp body. He took her down Brookfield Rd, just around the showgrounds to Rafting Ground Rd and took her out of the car just near the creek. It may have been the water on that cold night that may have revived her, whatever it was, as she regained her thoughts, she realised what was happening and started to scream. She fought as good as she could, punching and scratching.
    Neighbours, alerted by the screaming yelled out at the darkness in the direction of the screams. They yelled a warning they would call the police as he muffled her screams with his hands.
    This time he made sure of it.
    He got her back into the car. This was not what he had planned. He needed more time but he could not stay there. Thoughts racing through his head, it would have seemed like seconds and he was already at Moggill Rd.
    Being a Scout Member and frequented Tyamolum Scout grounds off Mt Crosby Rd, It was a natural choice to take her there….”

    After Theorist conjured up such a lively image of one theory of what could have happened, I remembered Moonlight saying she felt some bed atmosphere here and her horse behaved very strangely at the creek on Rafting Ground Rd, and I remembered Sasha’s post some days ago and wondered if there could be a connection – why would the two elderly BC’s be sitting in their car in Rafting Ground Rd at 8:30am on Monday morning 2 July……????

    It is a pity someone could not have watched them to see what they did or where they went…might have been interesting….

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  12. Based on limited info in the media about their neighbour’s dog barking and a comment (possibly on this forum) about screams heard in vicinity of Rees Way, I have been puzzled by the locations & timings.

    It would be conceivable that an argument started at home, which was taken outside due to the children being home (Allison’s thoughtfulness, not his) & she has walked off in an effort to diffuse the situation or get away from him. This would explain the dog barking.

    He could have followed her in the car & and attacked her, for any number of reasons, closer to Rees Way (if that’s where screams were reportedly heard). Maybe she wouldnt stop walking & get in the car with him, hence his story of her going for a walk.

    The poor woman may have been in the car for quite a period of time (I hate to think if bleeding or dead) while he worked out a disgusting way to save his own arse. Whether he phoned his father for assistance in hiding her or just to have a sook (for himself) after doing it on his own is something I hope the police know more about.

    Poor excuses for men – the pair of them. Father obnoxious enough to have those number plates & his mother’s character as weak as piss also. Sister, likely just a fool.

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  13. Ozmosis, I agree it definitely shows he was a very busy boy that night – and not sleeping like a log as claimed.

    I would hope the call to Bwana’s phone will count for something, because someone did answer it. It is probably futile to ‘make’ Bwana talk because he clearly is doing everything in his power to get his son off with murder, so he is not going to tell the truth, even under oath by the looks if it. But it does show some urgent communication took place between these parties, and that time of the morning considering what was going down, it was not about the weather.

    One would think it is most likely to be Bwana himself who answered the call, maybe he was asked for advice or summonsed to come and assist. Or if he was already with GBC, they may have called EBC to keep her in the loop (she would be very worried knowing the boys are out disposing of a body, and there’s yet some cleaning up to be done too) ,or GBC may have asked her for advice re how to use Allison’s make-up to try and hide the scratches a bit. Who knows!

    Pity the content can not be retrieved – it would have been very telling!! (Is this definitely totally impossible??)

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  14. Westside intersection not far from Rees intersection on Rafting Ground Rd. I think parents know everything.

    To add Baden to their actual surname of only Clay, just so that you can sell yourself up, says a lot about their own sense of portance. What jokes all round. Australians judge you for how you live your life, not for your bloodlines – wankers.

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  15. It will be very interesting to know what the 2 BC snrs were doing parked early morning in Rating Ground Rd, close to Rees Way where as Goose just reminded me the blood-curdling screams were is heard late on 19 April……it may be that this area is where they KNOW Allison was silenced for good….???

    Come to think of it, I wonder of Sasha has considered mentioning this sighting to QP, it may be nothing, but it also may be pointing to an area of interest…..

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  16. I am only new on this site, and after reading back a few months of your posts, I find that my theories are not very new or insightful. Everything I wrote about has been discussed by you guys in different ways already. Makes me think I should have done some reading before I wrote anything.
    My timeline was out on the late night face time call and the charger thing, but it does show that for at least 1 hour between 12:30 and 1:48 he was up and awake and doing something.

    I have been working on a new theory to balance my other one in that GBC had nothing to do with the murder and everything he said was true. I can’t help reminding myself of the way Lindy Chamberlain was tried and convicted by the Court of Public Opinion, and maybe GBC is in the same boat.

    …. NAHHH

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  17. Anyway,
    Of course NBC will not say anything to incriminate GBC.
    If GBC goes to jail for life, how the hell is he going to get back the $58,000 he is owed?

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  18. Maybe EBC took the face time call …. was asked to stay with the children in case one of the girls woke up while the men did the dump and run. She cleaned up a the same time ??

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  19. Theorist, I think NBC is more concerned about NBC. As much as he may (or not) love his son, he is out to protect his own butt. If GBC gets off then of course NBC does too but right at this moment I think NBC is really concerned that he can’t debrief his son every night. Since the moment of his son’s arrest he has been trying everything to get a contact visit. It must be eating him up knowing he can’t be there to stop his son blabbing about the whole thing and who else was involved.

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  20. Burleigh Beach : “There’s no proof the elders were involved, certainly nothing to justify a witch-hunt. Hope sober minds call a halt to the FB vigilante mobs before something irreversible happens”. I agree but having said that, in my opinion Nige at least is involved. But my opinion doesn’t justify stalking etc.

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  21. lol BB “Far out, though, huh ? All clamouring for an invite, like kids who’ve been left-out of a sleep-over or birthday party Seen it before. It’s embarrassing to think they have husbands, drive cars heading towards us and are raising children”.

    Yep, I personally couldn’t give a fig if I wasn’t invited to anyone’s secret little club. The childishness of even starting a private club is the very reason I would want no part of it.

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  22. And furthermore BB, have you been reading about the school mummy cliques the past couple of days? Vomit. I have never, in all of my 40 years of child-rearing (7 kids), wanted to get involved with the school mummy thing at all. I have always just taken my kids to school and picked them up, all without ever getting into the chitty chat that goes on. Like who wants to arrive at school morning and afternoon, half an hour early? Boredom? What’s that. I have always had enough stuff in my life to prevent boredom.

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  23. I am wondering if the prosecution is playing a waiting game in order to get the accomplice more and more on edge so that when a further arrest is made one will pit against the other. If that is the case more and more of the truth will come out in the open. Just a thought.

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  24. Hello Theorist
    Right back in the beginning of all this I was challenged with the notion of GBC’s innocence
    (Peter of Cairns who has sinced dropped off the radar)
    So I worked on that theory in my mind and ended up with this

    ………………………NAHHH!

    GBC the concerned and loving husband would have called the Dickies at no matter what ungodly hour on the night of the 19th April.
    He would have be been out and about looking EVERYWHERE from day 1
    He would have been at the FRONT LINE in the search for Allison from the beginning.
    He would have utilized the media at every opportunity.
    He would have utilized QPS and been 100% helpful with information even trivial stuff.
    He would have made public pleas for help.
    The end result would be FINDING Allison no matter what cost to himself.
    He would have thanked the public searchers and the QPS for all their valuable, appreciated help.
    He would have supported and comforted the Dickies
    He would not have used the children as human shields for himself. Or excuses for privacy either.
    He would have carried Allison’s coffin at the funeral
    He would spoken words of praise at Allison’s funeral.
    If he was too broken-hearted and knew that he wouldn’t be able to speak publicaly, he would have made a pre recorded message to be read out at her funeral. Something along the the lines of My Tribute to Allison. My loving wife and mother of our children.
    ……………………………………………………………………………..

    And all of the above is WITHOUT the call to the Insurance company on the day she was found, NOT identified.
    Can’t help feeling he was saying whilst rubbing his hands together
    “Hooray! At last! Here comes the money!”
    Together with” Life can go on as normal now. Yahooo”
    “Baden Clay’s the name
    Baden Clay such fame.”

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  25. I personally think people have had ample time for debriefing, something like 2 months. And I think if the senior is aware of details or is actually involved then I have no doubts at all that the wife is privy to this information. Hence the zipped lips.

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  26. QCL writes:
    Right back in the beginning of all this I was challenged with the notion of GBC’s innocence :)
    The theory that I was working on in regard to GBC being innocent involved sleeping gas, mass hypnosis, and alien transport ships.
    Therefore ……….NAHHHH!

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  27. Dunno Theorist
    Weird but I think we have the same conclusion
    Even with hugely lateral thinking………….. Just can’t cut it …………
    Nahhh!

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  28. ‎- Person Page 6368
    http://thepeerage.com/p6368.htm
    Genealogy Royal Noble Peer Duke Count Lord Baron Baronet Sir Database Family Tree Europe Nobility

    1 of 5Choose a Thumbnail

    No Thumbnail

    – Person Page 6368
    thepeerage.com
    Genealogy Royal Noble Peer Duke Count Lord Baron Baronet Sir Database Family Tree Europe Nobility

    – Person Page 6368
    thepeerage.com
    Genealogy Royal Noble Peer Duke Count Lord Baron Baronet Sir Database Family Tree Europe Nobility

    good morning all, some very interesting reading…click on GBC and then ABC..not sure who ‎- Person Page 6368
    http://thepeerage.com/p6368.htm
    Genealogy Royal Noble Peer Duke Count Lord Baron Baronet Sir Database Family Tree Europe Nobility

    1 of 5Choose a Thumbnail

    No Thumbnail

    – Person Page 6368
    thepeerage.com
    Genealogy Royal Noble Peer Duke Count Lord Baron Baronet Sir Database Family Tree Europe Nobility

    – Person Page 6368
    thepeerage.com
    Genealogy Royal Noble Peer Duke Count Lord Baron Baronet Sir Database Family Tree Europe Nobility

    good morning all, some very interesting reading…click on GBC and then ABC..not sure who updated this info ??? says date of death 30th April 2012 at Kholo Creek ??? maybe a misprint ??? or maybe Allison wasn’t completely deceased and was left to die at Kholo Creek ???…..interesting to know where this info came from ???updated this info ??? says date of death 30th April 2012 at Kholo Creek ??? maybe a misprint ??? or maybe Allison wasn’t completely deceased and was left to die at Kholo Creek ???…..interesting to know where this info came from ???

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  29. Alledgedly Gerad Baden-Clay drowned his wife in the bath,in the process she scratched his face and torso (hence the beard after her death) while she scratched him he was aware of DNA getting under her finger tips, he cut her hand off in order for this evidence to not be found. (hence being charged with interfering with a dead body). His father has alledgedly been given immunity from prosecution for alledgedly assisting Gerad move the body of his wife in return for ratting on his son.

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  30. Hi PJ

    Where did you hear that NBC was offered immunity, or is it supposition?

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  31. Hi Moonlight – this is supposition however the source where i have my theroy is highly reliablle. We will however have to wait until this is played out in court to confirm what i have been informed is correct.

    Wantsjustice4alison – as i said to moonlight i have source of who i would consider to be highly reliable infomed of her hand being alledgedly removed due to Alison alledgedly scratching Gerard therefore her DNA would be under her fingernails. Gerard being the alleged criminal mastermind in allegedly proceeded to remove the said hand and dispose of in order for the DNA to not be traced back to himself.

    This is all allegedly

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  32. Thanks PJ, I guess until it all comes out in court, we won’t really know for sure…..

    But we have discussed this scenario many times – drowning in bath. This is callous enough. But cutting off of a hand (or fingers) which has been rumoured before is just so gross it is almost beyond belief. It will account for the large amount of blood involved.

    We have also suspected NBC of having been involved. I find him getting ‘immunity’ a bit difficult to stomach if as we suspect he has been involved – the dealer is just as bad as the stealer, isn’t it? So how does dobbing in the stealer acquit the dealer??? Or is this not what immunity means?

    It makes me mad thinking how NBC strutted his stuff while everyone was out looking for Allison, being in such a jovial mood he even put on a pashing display for the media, and looking all smug at Allison’s, while everyone who loved Allison was utterly distraught.

    This sure is going to be a case that will be remembered for a long time. It is truly awful.

    Can one of the legal buffs (maybe Yoshi?) please explain if an accessory to a crime such as this can get ‘immunity’ and exactly what will that mean?

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  33. Still looking like a very long wait until we hear what evidence the QPS have, and I am confident it will be watertight when the time comes.
    But surely any dumb crim would know that DNA evidence from under fingernails has to be collected within hours. Then again … who knows what they think in the heat of the moment.
    I trust ABC hands were intact, for the 3 daughters’ sake.
    If immunity has been granted to anyone, it has to be for the alleged involvement of TMH.
    NBC’s alleged involvement, in my opinion, will not be admitted to by him as he believes in “blood ties”- I believe NBC will do anything & everything to protect his son.
    I’d like to think OW has a conflict with that belief.

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  34. There is now another ‘serious’ thread now “Gerard Baden-Clay will return to court on September 3, 2012″

    See http://aussiecriminals.com.au/2012/07/09/update-gerard-baden-clay-will-return-to-court-on-september-3-2012/comment-page-1/#comment-44736

    I noticed a few good ‘serious’ posts made in the lounge today, which would have fitted very well onto one of the ‘serious discussion’ threads. I have mentioned them in the new thread – feel free to expand on the topic there if you wish.

    I suspect maybe the 3 serious threads were a bit confusing becuse not everything always fitted in one of the motive, means and opportunity threads exactly.

    How about we start gathering ALL the serious on-topic posts in this new thread now so that we have one ‘serious on-topic’ and one chit-chat thread? That way no one on the serious thread will get frustrated with the chit-chatting, and no one in the lounge will get frustrated by serious posters who do not want to read chit-chat. Sounds like a potential win-win situation to me… hopefully blog heaven :)

    Then we can use the thumbs up and down as they are no doubt intended – constructively – up for ‘great post’ or ‘I agree’; down for ‘didn’t like the idea’ or ‘I disagree’…..without any unnecessary posts to this effect – not to be taken personally of course! Should be sweet….

    Everyone up for this?

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  35. Is it difficult to remove dna from under the fingernails simply by cleaning/washing them? Seems like a drastic step to take (cutting the hands off), especially when the body ended up in water anyway.

    I hope, and believe, her hands are intact.

    Yes, RIP Allison, this case is truly awful.

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  36. RIP Allison: sounds really good to me
    And I for one will NOT tolerate anything there relating to flu, shopping, dinner menus or husband’s rosters.

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  37. Has anyone heard anything more about that SIM card they found on Kholo Bridge?
    I don’t think it could have belonged to ABC.
    One of the first things the police would have asked is: Did she take her mobile phone with her?
    Once their suspicions arose, they would have triangulated that straight away to see what area she was in.
    Now…..
    If they were able to triangulate her phone, How would they be able to tell it was hers without the SIM card, that’s if the SIM card found on the bridge was hers.
    See what I’m getting at…….
    If the SIM card had been taken out of her phone and discarded on the bridge at Kholo Creek, then whoever removed the SIM card must have reassembled the phone with the battery and then turned the phone back on, and in doing so, allow triangulation can take place. If the phone was turned back on without the SIM, it could still be detected by the nearest mobile tower, if in the coverage range, but it would not be able to identify itself with a number or a network. It would be an unknown phone. (Just like an aircraft transponder transmitting without an identifier code. It can be seen on the radar but you don’t know who it is)
    Why turn the phone back on after removing the SIM?
    No. Big coincidence, but I don’t think that SIM on Kholo bridge belonged to ABC, unless the perpetrator did turn the phone back on after reassembly. But why would you unless you were in an absolute complete panic, doing things without thinking, making really bad decisions?

    So where is the phone?
    I’d say it is at Creekside Park off Rafting Ground Rd. NBC and Wife seen sitting there at the roadside staring into space. I think he knows where the phone is, just nearby in the park. Desperately wants to go and get it, but can’t afford to be seen walking around the hot zone. It was designated as the hot zone by the police before ABC’s body was found at Mt Crosby. I think not only because of the screams heard in that area, but my bet is the phone was triangulated there.
    It will be found one day

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