Gerard Baden-Clay-How does the Puzzle look on MEANS?


Murder shall be taken to have been committed where the act of the accused, or thing by him or her omitted to be done, causing the death charged, was done or omitted with reckless indifference to human life, or with intent to kill or inflict grievous bodily harm upon some person, or done in an attempt to commit, or during or immediately after the commission, by the accused, or some accomplice with him or her, of a crime…

This high profile case has captured the imagination of everybody it seems. From the day Allison went missing,  the suspicious behaviour of her husband, to the search, The discovery of her body, The funeral, The investigation, The media, and Arrest which came from nowhere and then the Bail application, the Bomb Threat, then Bail was denied and now GBC is on remand in Jail

So here we are many months later and what do we have. We obviously have a highly circumstantial case of Murder against Gerard Baden-Clay at the moment.

I think any ONE aspect taken in isolation could be seen to be suspicious.

But as one links all the pieces together they start to paint a much bigger picture.

Means, Motive, and Opportunity is a popular cultural summation of the three aspects of a crime needed to convince a jury of guilt in a criminal proceeding. Respectively, they refer to: the ability of the defendant to commit the crime (means), the reason the defendant had to commit the crime (motive), and whether or not the defendant had the chance to commit the crime (opportunity). Opportunity is most often disproved by use of an alibi, which can prove the accused was not able to commit the crime as he or she did not have the correct set of circumstances to commit the crime. Ironically, motive is not an element of many crimes, but proving motive can often make it easier to convince a jury of the elements that must be proved for a conviction. Furthermore, a showing of the presence of these three elements is not, in and of itself, sufficient to convict beyond a reasonable doubt; the evidence must prove that an opportunity presented was indeed taken by the accused and for the crime with which he or she is charged.

Motive, that being the massive financial debt, the affairs and the promise to leave his wife to his mistress, Toni McHugh.

Opportunity, did Gerard have the opportunity to murder his wife. Could of someone else done it? Was he helped in anyway?

Means, if he did murder her, How did he go about it. How was she killed?, where was she killed?, When did it happen?, Where was she taken? The list goes on.

The pieces of clues to this puzzle are significant and reach wide. We are going to have a go at documenting them right here folks UNDER THE FOLLOWING HEADINGS

MEANS

If he did murder her, How did he go about it. How was she killed?, where was she killed?, When did it happen?, Where was she taken?

PLEASE KEEP ALL DISCUSSION ON THIS THREAD TO THIS SUBJECT ONLY

I will use my discretion and delete irrelevant comments

MOTIVE thread

OPPORTUNITY thread

MEANS thread

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151 thoughts on “Gerard Baden-Clay-How does the Puzzle look on MEANS?

  1. Not getting the 404 reverts to here. Testing times for us all. At least the sun’s shining.

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  2. OOPS my post for means…. I accidentally put it in “opportunity” at 11:25…… Doh !! Love G.

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  3. http://aussiecriminals.com.au/the-lounge/

    About time we had a place to make comments in general or off topic don’t you think folks?

    Hopefully it will remove a bit of the trivia we tend to chat about within a thread on certain subjects. Anything goes here, within reason of course, and still NO sledging permitted.

    I will also get a chat widget up and running too for quick little conversations folks can have with each other, without the need for permanent comments. That will be in a few days, I have to move my server over to enable some really cool widgets and features for us to enjoy!

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  4. Hi everyone, never posted before so here goes. Re the discussion of why the police cottoned on that there was foul play early on, we know some people who live in Brookfield not far from Allison’s house (wont call it bc house because she held this family together not him) and they say that the inside of the house was a mess with holes in the walls etc..really don’t know if it’s true but maybe this was what set alarm bells ringing?

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  5. salley – Well that would make alarm bells ring in the eyes of the attending Police, that’s for sure. They’d suspect DV straight away.
    Can he really be THAT stupid to know that Police would observe this?
    Yes, I reckon he is that stupid!

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  6. I really don’t know much as this conversation was held before Allison was found and nothing much was known. Would really like to speak to them again but they are overseas. The general tone of the conversation was that there were “problems” and that there were holes in the walls. I also know that there was no much love lost between the dickies and the bcs.

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  7. Hi guys, this is new to me too so hope I’m on the right thread! Salley, I know there’s been so much speculation as to why the search for Allison was ramped up straight away. Interesting to hear about the holes in the walls. We look forward to when your friends return from overseas and tell you more. Please make sure to keep us informed, won’t you? Thank you.

    You can understand why the Dickies and BC’s didn’t get on – worlds apart, aren’t they? Also, if your son-in-law is a serial philanderer with many other women, you surely wouldn’t like him much would you? I was thinking yesterday perhaps the fact that the initial police to respond to GBC, seeing all the scratches on his face and neck, alerted them that something was seriously wrong. Perhaps (I’m not sure) there had been previous call-outs regarding DV?

    I had the most awful dreams last night, regarding Allison’s death. I kept dreaming someone very close to me was trying to strangle me, and what that must feel like. I’d wake up in a cold sweat and then go back and dream the same thing over and over. Sounds awful and macabre, I know. I just get a sense that with the scratches on GBC’s body reported through the police to the media recently, he must have been very close to her, and doing something so awful that she would literally have been clawing out and fighting for her life.

    I find this difficult to write. It just goes against the grain in every possible way, offends our collective consciousness. That another person – let alone a husband – could take another person’s life. If we have to speculate on cause of death, mine is a horrible close-up strangulation. Whether this is after knocking her somewhere in the head, I don’t know. How do we explain the amount of blood identified in the car from the photos? (if it’s Allison’s – but I don’t think the prosecution would get those facts wrong, particularly with the state of the art forensic testing available now). Could there have been some injury or blunt trauma to her face which would cause a great deal of bleeding? Horrible, horrible thoughts.

    This case has just shaken me to the core, and I don’t know why. I suppose possibly because of my belief in the sanctity of marriage, the vows… it just really is beyond belief and comprehension. And for money? I can’t put my finger on why it is the last thing I think about at night and have terrible dreams about…

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  8. His personal MEANS

    his Malignant Narcissism which allowed his lack of conscience or remorse
    his lying tongue
    his deceitful nature
    his sleuthful nature
    his cowardice (notably hiding behind his children, not only as an excuse for ‘work”/ privacy, but also using the children as human shields at their mothers funeral)
    his physical strength to overpower her (preferably in her moment of weakness)

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  9. Means?

    As Queensland Country Lady so aptly put, he had a lot of inner/personal ‘means’. They certainly were the motivating factors, but for actually doing the deed, I think he either strangled her (with the tightened scarf/rope which had been left around her neck), or suffocated her (with a plastic bag? Maybe some remnants of it over her face, in her nose, mouth (sorry to be so graphic) – hence the police knowing ‘immediately’ how she was murdered. More like suffocation, if there were ‘no signs of trauma’.

    I can’t understand why they (police) said she may have known her killer. What possible proof would there be that she ‘may have’? Even, what possible proof would there be that she DID, in fact, know her killer? It all gets a bit too cryptic for me at times. I had another thought early in the piece that he might have drowned her in the bath, but if that was the case, the police wouldn’t/COULDN’T known ‘immediately’ how she died.

    And how would they know that she was killed ‘in the house’?! What evidence of murder was ‘in the house’, that led them to where they (and G!) are now?! I wonder if we’ll ever find out the details of this horrible horrible incident. At any rate, I think Bwana’s an accessory. THERE’S some extra means. Indirect means, but means, none-the-less. Mum and sis aren’t innocent little lambs in this either IMO. They at least KNOW more than what they’re letting on. But that’s besides the point.

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  10. I think the defence are leaving all the gory, jaw-dropping details of how GBC murdered her for the jury at the trial. It will come as a huge shock to the brutal, callous way he did it, that the jury will have this only imprinted on their brain and will convict him. Smart defence angle I hope.
    If anyone here logs onto Facebook, there is a brilliant page called ‘Justice for Allison Baden-Clay’.
    Very interesting too.

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  11. Yes Sad for Allison 7.59 it knocked me off balance hearing Allison missing and I instinctively knew (2+2=4) she was murdered before they found her. Motive a combo of; jealous rage ( Allison popular,talented and true), anger at being exposed as a cheater and a serial liar, the cowardly action of murder to gain insurance- that was PREMEDITATED and to teach Allison who’s boss/bwana. I suspect Allison probably gave him a few verbals and Mr slimey weenie heinie GBC imploded ! NBC complicit motive- coached the douchebag son as he obviously did in all areas of his life- thats why Gerbil is so useless and a liar, a cheat and a failure!…swinging off daddy’s Tits ! …and GBC is alleged as “highley looking likely as a guilty murderer and body interferer”. couldn’t even train a Caterpillar ..just sayin ….;-)

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  12. If a bloke really wanted to kill his wife,
    all he’d need to do is overpower her in the bath when she is completely vulnerable.

    If he wasn’t quite strong enough, or the fight she put up was more than he anticipated,
    a tap over the head with heavy object would accomplish the end result.

    This bloke is army trained.
    This bloke is also son of African game hunter. Well advertised.

    Opportunity and means together

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  13. Queensland Country Lady @ 4:12 –
    put like that it sounds so straight forward. I think the video call to dad was to show him the scratches and find out how to hide them. That may have been the only involvement Daddy had. Gerbil could have said they had a punch up, Allison scratched him and stormed out of the house.

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  14. Allison Sandy reports today in the CM that GBC had scratches on the palms of his hands. Makes me think that he could have strangled A. She would have desperately tried to remove his hands, hence the scratches. Word around my workplace from people who know people close to the case is that there were fingers missing, not hands. I realise that it is just a rumour but makes me wonder about why the police searched the parent’s garden shed early on.

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  15. The removal of fingers is a possible motive to dispose of evidence under the finger nails due to Allison scratching him. If that is the case I wonder what happened to the missing fingers or if they were found.

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  16. I also wonder about the blood found in the car. Strange that is only seems to appear on the left and right side of the vehicle but not in the centre where the body would likely have been. Is it possible that this because of the missing fingers, eg here hands were placed there where the blood was located?

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  17. May be we are on to something here. It is starting to make sense. Having said that though we could be totally off track. However, if this were the case it would explain the charge of interfering with a corpse.

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  18. Just re-read the article in the CM again and it says that scratches were found on the palm of his hand. Only on one hand. That would then be more likely to be his hand covering her mouth to silence her screams. In my opinion.

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  19. Further pondering……. after watching, again, the only interview G gave to a reporter – “was she upset before she left?” G -”noo…. the police……..”; then goes on to end the interview. Total avoidance of anything further about Allison being upset. So….. if Allison wasn’t upset (according to G) then why did he have scratches all over him? And….leave? He was like a kid caught with his hands in the lolly jar..didn’t know what to say..imo

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  20. Has anyone thought of bath electrocution?
    Hair dryer, hair straightener, electric heater thrown in?
    The 1970s Australian movie, whose name escapes me, had this scenario when the psychopath protagonist killed his mother in the tub.
    I’m pretty sure Bruce Spence played the “psychopath” character (or misunderstood, or having a bad day or something).
    Perhaps in this situation what happens next it…

    Phone call (let’s say hypothetically a face time call – “Look at this here!. How do I drain the bath without electrocuting myself?”)

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  21. Aah, I just thought of the film title. “Patrick”.
    I don’t know now whether or not Bruce Spence was in it. Terrific actor.

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  22. Some very thoughtful posts here tonight. We are all obviously so upset about the circumstances surrounding Allison’s murder.
    Who knows how he did it? The key is no obvious sign of trauma, yet he had planned it. I think he held her mouth over the stove and gassed her. That’s my guess, because she would have been clawing at hi, and she chipped her tooth on the stove.
    The blood, wow, that’s the million dollar question.
    Tomorrow would have been her birthday. So sad. He can still see the sun rise tomorrow, enjoy a meal, breathe, and even hope. She cant, and those poor little girls….

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  23. has ABC’s phone been found? how it’s been put 4km away? taken with the body or separately? thrown out of the car’s window or carried into the bushes? what if they had an argument and ABC seriously went out of the house, said “enough” and drove away (to friends/parents house?) but he followed her, eventually cars stopped near the bridge etc..

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  24. Just thinking about the way ABC was found, with her hands behind her back (tied?). It appears to me that she may have been bound and gagged, whilst alive (there would be no need after the fact). Forcing a gag in to someones mouth could quite easily chip a tooth. Assuming that this is what happened and her hands were behind her back, the blood on the door trim would have to have come from her head – head injury would be easily identifiable when the police located her, and would explain the police checking out NBC’s garden shed looking for a murder weapon The reason there was no blood on the seat – she was wrapped in something before being put in the car.

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  25. Millie (June 30, 9.59pm)

    You make a very interesting point about Gerb’s getting off the subject pretty quickly of whether Allison was upset or not. I think it was a catch 22 for him. I’m sure he would have loved to say she was upset, it would have gone well with her apparent “depression” and subsequently painting a picture of suicide. However, admitting she was upset, would have backfired, it would have made it clear they’d had a row and he was the last person to see her alive. So in summary, he had to weigh up which story would look worse (for him & his defence). There’s no doubting he’d have loved for it to be seen as suicide, but it would have drawn too much attention to his personal life, the problems they were having, hence the motive, opportunity and means. This explains why he wouldn’t tell the QPS what they discussed the night she went missing. He admitted there was a conversation had, but wouldn’t say what it was about, and to this day still hasn’t.

    Clearly it was about his rooting around and he didn’t want everyone to find out. I wouldn’t be surprised if he finds it more humiliating that everyone now knows he had 3 mistresses, than actually being accused of murder.

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  26. Allison’s Birthday- July 1- God Bless her Soul!

    … Just thinking IMO – too many theories … although valid and appreciated.
    I keep thinking that the police knew COD- as soon as they discovered Kholo, so I don’t think its electrocution. It will be simple as forensics weren’t req’d for COD- strangulation or face smothered.

    ….. Truecrimefan- where was this reported? –“her hands behind her back (tied?).”

    …… Agreed mrsmuddle – he couldn’t give a rats about the TRUTH- THAT WE KNOW-COMPULSIVE LIAR TO SAVE HIS BBQ’D AZZ.

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  27. Getting back to means … Yes he would have the means-physically much stronger than Allison, and Police charged with interfering with a body= Guilty as on means !
    Interesting NBC “Father Coward Skull” still not talking in the Sunday mail- and is feigning NOW (I wonder why? Surley he is not reading Robbo’s thread?…as he doesn’t read the paper ;-) )…… that he is feigning grieving for Allison- Jackass!
    The photo of NBC in Sunday mail says it all- thin shouldered…fading old man…. and frail/weak- gut bloated or does he have a Gerbil or two stashed in there?
    He wouldn’t last long in the Gorrie Gorrie mainstream, he would die in jail, so the medical unit you had better roster on some additional staff for the Baden-Sponges as there will be a few more arriving shortly….just saying ;-)
    Father Skull…fading fast…

    http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/parents-of-accused-killer-gerard-baden-clay-empty-rented-brookfield-house/story-e6freoof-1226413239229

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  28. angelkim2012 says:
    July 1, 2012 at 7:23 am

    It wasn’t reported, just my observation of the pictures disclosed by Chanel 10 of ABC on the bank. I also believe that she was still alive when placed in the car, otherwise there would not have been the splatter of blood just a patch where the blood had leaked/drained, due to the fact that the heart still beating and pumping blood would have caused the spray (sort of like when you put your finger over the hose). When the heart has stopped there is no pressure behind the blood and just draining would result. IMO

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  29. Thanks for the link angelkim, that pic is priceless!
    I wonder who will clean out Nige’s house when he goes to the big house too?
    OW? She has been rather quiet …

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    • pugville, hopefully OW is where she is SUPPOSED to be, with her own kids. Instead of babying her adult brother and making a public fool of herself.

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  30. I think this question goes towards “means”. Is it clear wether or not the girls where actually home the night of the murder?? The only thing I can find is a newspaper article, claiming the last time the girls saw Allison was that night when she was dropping them off to a friends for a slumber party, this suggesting they weren’t home on the night in question. Can any one shed some light on this??

    P.S happy birthday Allison, R.I.P

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  31. Thx truecrimefan,Pug,Ozmos- Wow truecrime surely he wouldn’t have been that animalistic! Scary theory and only QPS/forensics know the truth….it will come out!
    Yep NBC looking a tad- Nervvy shrivelled- waiting to be dragged in like his monster son…… the delay is obviously doing his head in! ……………………. GREAT!
    Qld Police are nice Folk- best you talk…for your OWN GOOD NBC!

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  32. Allisons B day today…lots of flowers on the bridge when i went out thismorning…so sad.
    Yesterday Cranes pulling down his Century 21 signs from his “Flash New” offices in Taringa.
    bring on justice for A. get the “Others”

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  33. angelkim2012 says:
    July 1, 2012 at 9:54 am
    Wow truecrime surely he wouldn’t have been that animalistic!

    No, just a lack of empathy would suffice.

    I also think this is why “Peter Davis, SC, for Baden-Clay, described the Crown case as “weak”, saying no evidence as to where she was killed, what date or time she was killed”.

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  34. @ Ozdiablo

    I understand the girls were home that night, and GBC’s fake tect messages the following morning indicate thery were.

    I do wonder who they were with the previous evening as Allison od daid to have arricved back from the hairdresser arounf 6.30 PM, and GBV arrived home at around 8.30 PM, so they may have been keft with a frien and picked up by
    \Allison on her way home.

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  35. Gtben the reports od chilling abd muffled screams that night, some distance from the ho,e I also wonder if Allison may have suggocated at home, but only to the point of passing out, and came to on the way ro rhe disposal site, and was attacked and strangled, resulting in the blood stains.

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  36. Haha the QPS and media are doing NBC’s head in this morning. Talk about upping the pressure; ‘Nige won’t assist detectives, will not talk’ and ‘Nige cleaning out rented home, including golf clubs’.
    Fancy a round of golf Niges? hahaha

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  37. Agree Pug- Its screw screw tighter tighter, he’s looking like nervous shrivelled and guilty !
    Truecrimefan-didn’t quite get what you mean as QPS are obviously certain they have one murderer- just not laying their cards down yet.
    Metered and payus- will SPOUT HIS MOUTH innocent all day long- Coz thats what these GRUBBY defence lawyers are paid to do! Can u please expand “I also think this is why “Peter Davis, SC, for Baden-Clay, described the Crown case as “weak”, saying no evidence as to where she was killed, what date or time she was killed”……
    Next you’d eexpect him to say -allsion is alive and well- these grubs are so full of shite…
    RIP Allison 44 and never forgotten! a star in the sky !

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  38. angelkim2012 says:
    July 1, 2012 at 12:37 pm

    I also think this is why… “Peter Davis, SC, for Baden-Clay, described the Crown case as “weak”, saying no evidence as to where she was killed, what date or time she was killed”(Quoted in CM)

    What I mean is with blood splatter in the car and not blood pooling, I am saying that she was alive in the car, hence “No evidence as to where she was killed” injured yes but not deceased. I think QPS have a very strong case and as more evidence becomes available to us like COD etc.the pieces will come together.

    Hope this explains what I mean..I note the thumbs downers are here again LOL.

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  39. We still don’t know what DNA was sent across to Perth on the Friday after his brief appearance in court the previous day. That was the day the sought permission from the court to remove shavings from his beard and they took samples of his hair. Maybe the DNA results aren’t back yet?

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  40. Mrs Scott,
    If I have read the court documents correctly, the beard was not merely for a DNA sample. They wanted to check his face for scratch/scar evidence. If it were only DNA they could have taken from his head hair.
    My point is that the beard hair request seems to be more than DNA procurement.

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  41. GBC was no doubt physically stronger than Allison and also could have taken her by surprise. I have no doubt he killed her in a ruthless, callous manner. Premeditated, the only use he had remaining for her was to in her life insurance to pay his bills and continue his womanising unopposed – it is truly awful!

    He definitely had some type of assistance or support though in committing this despicable act. That NBC was involved is without question – as evidenced by the 12:30am face time call – great work QP!! I think it is time to subpoena NBC and force him to either give evidence of sit in the slammer if he refuses charged with obstruction of the law.

    I wonder if it is expected he would perjure himself rather than tell the truth….???

    Anything is possible as far as NBC the scout and big game hunter goes – it will need to be established if he was the mastermind or accessory, and whether he assisted physically with the act and/or disposal or only supplied advice and/or moral support. Whichever, it is despicable!

    He too needs to pay for whatever part he played in this awful murder. So too other family members who knew right from the start what happened to Allison, but chose to be silent hoping they will get away with murder. Horrible!!!!

    I can’t wait to see when and how QP is going to deal with this family.

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  42. Rip Masterfull and strategic timing!i me to subpoena NBC and force him to either give evidence of sit in the slammer if he refuses charged with obstruction of the law.he got the defnece fleas for now!
    Yep ‘ Anything is possible as far as NBC the scout and big game hunter goes – it will need to be established if he was the mastermind or accessory, and whether he assisted physically with the act and/or disposal or only supplied advice and/or moral support. Whichever, it is despicable!
    He too needs to pay for whatever part he played in this awful murder. So too other family members who knew right from the start what happened to Allison, but chose to be silent hoping they will get away with murder. Horrible!!!!

    I can’t wait to see when and how QP is going to deal with this family.

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  43. Sorry for not being around all weekend folks, had some family time which has been great with some family seeing him for the 1st time!,

    But I just wanted to ask of those who were here over the weekend.How have the threads gone?

    Is the idea working, trouble? Repetition might be a factor, but the idea I has was that when we can pretty much agree on any fact it gets written into the actual post and so on. No more discussion required…

    All those things like his debts etc.

    I know I ask of others to stay on topic but also, I want to update the filter for certain words, It has most of the swear words and vile stuff (originally to stop spam for porn sites etc I imagine) But some slip through.I you have seen stuff that’s a real turn off, email me with them and I will add them to the list.As you can guess it is never ending keeping it up to date…Cheers to you all.

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  44. Mrs Scott 8.39pm

    IMO I don’t think she would have been murdered that early after her hair appointment as the girls would have still been awake and surely putting her in the bath etc would have been too hard to conceal from them.

    I feel he murdered her once they were in bed, the children would have been asleep. He either strangled her or possible suffocation with a pillow. Scratches were reported being under his armpit, torso, chest and face, this all seems very likely that he was straddling her while she was on her back in bed and struggling hence the scratches he has are consistent with this scenario. He must have been wearing a singlet or was bare chested to have scratches under his armpit. Bare chested or singlet seems to be the only explanation, therefore I believe the murder took place in the bedroom.

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  45. thx truecrime fan-July 1, 2012 at 3:44 pm- scary if he was that barbaric/animalistic- he should never surface if that is proven!

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  46. asha1972 says:
    July 2, 2012 at 3:32 pm

    does anyone know how the white prado was damaged? maybe he ran her down!?

    Apparently the damage to the prado was before Allison went missing, although having the same car myself, and testing a theory out (without damaging my own car LOL). Someone has hit a full Wheelie Bin on the side of the road.

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  47. Robbo says:
    July 2, 2012 at 12:07 pm

    Maybe a thread with Evidence presented to date, not hearsay but everything provided by the QPS so far.

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  48. The Thinker says:
    July 2, 2012 at 12:22 pm
    Scratches were reported being under his armpit, torso, chest and face, this all seems very likely that he was straddling her while she was on her back in bed and struggling hence the scratches he has are consistent with this scenario. He must have been wearing a singlet or was bare chested to have scratches under his armpit. Bare chested or singlet seems to be the only explanation, therefore I believe the murder took place in the bedroom.

    Wow, you are so right about the lack of shirt, but I still can’t get past the blood splatter in the car :(

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  49. Thinker (12:22pm): Yes, if the scratches to his torso were as extensive as you mention (was this reported or just rumour?) then the scenario you depics appears very likely. I think she would have fought back more than he anticipated, and he would have had to hit her very hard in the face to subdue her – hence the chipped tooth and the blood.

    As you know mouth wounds bleed a lot lip, eg cheek and or toungue cut by eg teeth or split by a fist blow. I wonder of one dies if the blot clotting mechanism by blood platelets will continue to operate, or whether it is controlled hormonally and won’t get triggered…any experts here to assist on this?

    There would have been bloody bedding and bloody clothes generated in this process, and even if he wrapped her up in the soiled bedclothes to put in the car, blood likely would have oozed out from the ends (which is consistent with the blood pattern in the car – an awful thought!)

    Apart from him having a lot of cleaning to do inside the house and the car afterwards (which is consistent with the rumour of there being a strong smell of cleaning/disinfectant products in the home early the next morning). Luminol will definitely still show up whatever he tried to wash off, so if this is what happened the police would be very sure the crime took place in the home, which I think they say is the case. He would have had to load of washing to do, or alternatively dumo the soilded bedding in a skip or the like. I seem to remember the police looking in skops – I wonder if they found anything there???. If not, I wonder if he managed to wash and dry all the clothes and bedding in the night, or if something was left for the police tofind the next day – I seem to remember them taking some ‘clothes’ away with them as evidence in brown paper bags.

    I can barely bare to think about the possibility of the rumour that fingers were cut off too to eradicate DNA evidence form all the scratching…..man one must be callous to do this….makes one woner about the involvement of a ‘big game hunter’….??? Maybe this is what the 12:30am phone call was – to show scratches and ask for advice, maybe about how best to cut off fingers, maybe to summons assistance……?? Gruesome stuff!!!

    It might have been too risky to do finger cutting parked next to the road, may have been easier to do at home too with the benefit of privacy and light. More blood to clean up though…and to be found by Luminol….. I don’t think the finger rumour surfaced until after the body was found, so perhaps the police would not have searched both BC rubbish bins as carefully as they would have…who knows….???

    I think when the full truth comes out in the trial, we are going to be revolted by what will be revealed. GBC is definitely where he should be for a very long time, I wonder if he should be there alone though or if she should be joined by at least one or more family member……?????

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  50. truecrimefan, someone from Brookfield some time ago told us on this site the bingle in the front of the Parado happened before A went missing. GBC didn’t have the money to get it fixed.

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  51. judy says:
    July 3, 2012 at 6:38 am

    truecrimefan, someone from Brookfield some time ago told us on this site the bingle in the front of the Parado happened before A went missing. GBC didn’t have the money to get it fixed.

    I know, I was responding to asha1972 – I’m having trouble with this replying issue. :)

    I tested my theory before it was noted that the damage was prior to ABC going missing.

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  52. The more I think about it, and I really don’t want to, the pash between the parents of GBC looks more like reassurance & support, not just for what GBC has done, but for what they have done. It looks like to me, “Don’t worry darling, I love you & will back you up. We are in this together.” I have a feeling that they need each other to cling to & justify their maybe part in Allisons death. They had the means to possibly dispose of the body. I’m sure they both know the area around the scout camp very well.

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  53. ABC had a chipped bottom-left eye tooth… (and there is a report of Bruce having a scratch on his right hand…)

    I could be wrong but to me the chipped/broken tooth indicates she was struck in the face with some force…

    I hope I’m wrong here… but getting punched/struck about the face can chip/break you teeth…

    and the bleeding… may be wrong…. but relatively small wounds in the head/face/mouth area bleed more because your blood pressure is higher in your head/neck… and this could explain the blood in the car…

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  54. I found this (googling) which I found very interesting as it seems to support my theory that ABC was still alive when put in the car.

    Q. After someone is strangled to death, will blood still spatter from from post mortem trauma?

    I’m researching a serial killer for an essay, and I have a theory I need verified about blood spray/spatter.

    A. I would say ‘NO’, if the strangulation was from ‘pressure’ and not puncture.

    My interpretation of ’strangling’ would be either by putting hands around the throat or by hanging…so death would occur from lack of oxygen entering the body, and starving the heart and brain and other vital organs of oxygen.

    Even post mortem trauma…say stabbing the person after they are dead and the heart has ceased to beat, should only result in a ’trickle’ of blood…not any ’spray or spatter. With no heart BEAT there is no BLOOD PRESSURE.

    We see that during autopsy…that the blood actually ’pools’ to the lowest portion of the body, which enables the ME to determine if the body has remained in the position from the moment of death OR has been moved or repositioned.

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  55. truecrimefan says:
    July 3, 2012 at 9:28 am

    truecrimfan, do you think it may be possible that there was only a small amount of blood in the vehicle and maybe if someone hosed the back out to try and give it a quick clean then the blood mixed with water would have spread making it look more like a splatter.

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    • judy, anything is possible but I’m still of the thought that he killed her by stabbing or cutting arteries. All will be revealed in good time but I sense there was an awful lot of blood to be cleaned. I believe the prosecution only let a few injury details out at the bail hearing. Remember the barrister said she only had a chipped tooth but there were signs of significant amounts of blood in the car. The prosecutor said nothing, didn’t try to right the incongruity of the two statements. i.e. why so much blood and only a cracked tooth. Blood on both sides of the car. A lip or nose wouldn’t go so far apart. In normal people blood coagulates fairly quickly and blood loss slows or stops. In major wounds it doesn’t. I know its only a rumour but I was still chilled by the rumour that Allison’s body was drained of blood – that to me means a significant wounds.

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  56. Oh, sorry, just thought of something else. If it were just a small amount of blood why hose it? I would just treat the patch and that would make it unlikely again that blood would be so far apart in the car.

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  57. Possibly the blood showing on both sides of the car was more to do with transfer. Maybe using the same cloth to wipe down the area??? Possible???

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  58. The Thinker, of course its possible as is every other theory we have discussed. But I am like a dog at a bone and I would be thinking why wipe down an area that hasn’t seen blood? If blood was on one side of the car but not the other, why wipe the other side? Is the carpet fitted to go over the wheel hubs or does the carpet go around them, leaving the metal bare?

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  59. I imagine he was frantically cleaning and just wiping everything, we all know hs is not the sharpest tool in the shed, just simply a tool! I doubt the carpet covers the hubs.

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  60. Like I have said previously, looking at the blood photo’s the door trim has been removed by QPS showing the blood that GBC failed to clean or see. The amount of blood remaining behind the door trim is still a substantial amount, therefore there would have been an incredible amount on the door trim to account for this “seepage”. Blood still coagulates when it leaves the body so in order to clean it, it would be more of a smear rather than a splatter. Transfer is possible and probable however I still fail to see how it would cause the splatter pattern in the pics. JMO

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  61. Mrs Scott 3 wrong attempts and you are out with Hotmail. Also, with too many attempts they start asking for stuff like phone numbers, answers to secret questions to make sure it is you. If you fluff up twice, best to stop and think for a while before trying again. I keep my pw’s in a special place, all together, lol. As to email spam, I don’t think Robbo is the type to sell our email addresses to anyone :) Getting them in an email program is sooo much better in my opinion, Robbo has our email addresses whether we receive it in our emails or read it on the web. Each to their own though, I personally would have given up reading by now if I had to read it through the web.

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    • Hi Oz, not sure what is happening but my name mentioned in the same sentence as selling email addresses is distressing. I would never ever ever reveal an email address to anyone let alone sell one. I can assure everyone of that.

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  62. Is there anyone from Townsville on the blog? If so please tell us what is the feeling on the ground there about OWs ‘coincidental’ presence in Brisbane when this crime was committed, and also her enthusiastic attempts to free the killer ever since? Any cracks appearing in the pastor’s support – he beginning to see the wood for the trees or is he still totally under control, maybe also regularly being ‘debriefed’ as the children apparently were (shock!) about what he can and can’t say?

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  63. Well put RIP-July 4, 2012 at 7:59 am- It would be great to hear “Non-Flock” / Public opinion about this Pasta and OW and “the vibe in TSVLE” …. ;-)
    Oucha …. her enthusiastic attempts to free the killer …… NBC will be angry… ;-)

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  64. Spotted OW and husband in Toowong last week. She was on the phone looking very distressed before collecting an order of about 4-6 take-away coffees. I’m not sure whether she’s still in town but she definitely was here last Wed/Thurs.

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    • Interesting Watching. Wonder if the kids are here too. I believe she should be putting her kids first but they are a weird family.

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  65. Un..believeable … Watching – Nice work ! These guys are as “thick as the pigs proverbial”. I guess she wants to be close when poppa Skull goes down – I reckon she will go down too- has to! … I reckon OW’s depressed you know … well she soon will be ;-) …but at least she’s still alive!

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  66. @ RIP Allison
    July 4, 2012 at 7:59 am

    I have a sister living in Townsville who used to attend that church (the good Pastor wasn’t there then), and she says there is zero discussion about GBC with the church members she keeps in touch with. She also expresses little interest in the case herself and I am hard-pressed to find anyone outside of this blog with whom I can share any thoughts, despite living in Brisbane.
    Thank goodness for this blog Robbo.

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  67. @ Watching July 5th 8.13am

    School holidays and a trip down to Brisvegas for a family who haven’t been in Townsville for very long really. OW would want to be around extended family at this time I imagine.
    United they stand :-#

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  68. Weird, someone seemingly tried to impersonate OW on the motive thread a few hours ago. One wonders who and for what purpose….maybe Robbo will recognise the IP address and have a few ideas about the motive?

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  69. My 2 cents.
    I think when he got home that night he picked a fight with her. Of course he started it. She just had her hair done didn’t she? She would have been feeling good about herself, so she wouldn’t have started anything. He started an argument and took the initiative straight away to carry out what had been in his head for some time. The argument ramped up into a struggle and he tried to suffocate her.
    Often when someones breathing is cut off, the first thing to happen is the person will black out. This is what I think happened. She was out cold, but still alive.
    He put her into the car chipping one of her teeth as he struggled with her limp body. He took her down Brookfield Rd, just around the showgrounds to Rafting Ground Rd and took her out of the car just near the creek. It may have been the water on that cold night that may have revived her, whatever it was, as she regained her thoughts, she realised what was happening and started to scream. She fought as good as she could, punching and scratching.
    Neighbours, alerted by the screaming yelled out at the darkness in the direction of the screams. They yelled a warning they would call the police as he muffled her screams with his hands.
    This time he made sure of it.
    He got her back into the car. This was not what he had planned. He needed more time but he could not stay there. Thoughts racing through his head, it would have seemed like seconds and he was already at Moggill Rd.
    Being a Scout Member and frequented Tyamolum Scout grounds off Mt Crosby Rd, It was a natural choice to take her there. It was isolated, he could have time to think. Thats where he left her. In the creek at the bottom of the hill from the scout hall. (The torrential rains over the next few days moved her further down the creek a few hundred meters toward the bridge.)
    He was at the Camp ground for a few hours.
    When he left, He went straight along Moggill Rd towards Kenmore. There is no way he would drive back along Rafting Ground Rd in case the neibouring people had actually called the police.

    Somewhere here his car was seen by the traffic camera at the Kenmore roundabout. He may have even gone all the way back to the office at Taringa to use it as an alibi perhaps.
    He made the phone call to his Dad at 1:48.
    The Police were looking for cars at the roundabout between 11:30 and 4:00 am. I think he went somewhere past that roundabout at maybe close to 12 midnight, called his dad from wherever he was (Taringa office) and then drove past the roundabout again going home to Brookfield just before 4:00 am.
    “Dad I did it, but not as planned”, “Don’t worry, stick to the same story Son”

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    • Theorist, the video call was at approx 12.30 am. The phone was put back on the charger at 1.48 am.

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  70. Reality Bites – interesting link to Nigel’s visit to Arthur Gorrie, thanks for that
    I look at the Photo of the Father and the Mother of GBC as they approach the church for the funeral. The Mother of GBC has a handful of flowers and is looking solemnly at the ground. This is how you would expect someone to appear. The Father however is trying to hide a smile. He appears to be enjoying the attention.
    I would have thought someone would be solemn or maybe a little angry at the media invasion at such a very sorrowful and personal occasion.
    My bet is there is some sort of complicity, obviously the police think so too.

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  71. Wait a minute wait a minute. I was wrong (who would believe)
    GBC’s phone was put back on the charger very soon after he called his Dad, so he must have been at home already.
    He didn’t go to Taringa at all.
    He may have gone from Moggill Rd to Brookfield Rd through the roundabout, but apparently that part of the roundabout cannot be seen by the traffic camera, so GBC could not have been seen by the camera.
    It didn’t make sense until I saw the Fathers car. (thanks to Reality Bites post)
    Nigel has a white Prado just like GBC’s, except without the Century 21 sign on the back,
    The Police were not looking for GBC’s car at the roundabout, it must have been NBC’s car they were looking for.
    I reakon NBC went to visit GBC after the late night face phone call and went through the Kenmore roundabout while doing so.
    I love it when the penny drops like that.

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  72. Theorist says:
    July 7, 2012 at 1:41 am

    Hi Theorist, you have some interesting posts and I like reading them…The 3 screams that were heard (the last scream being muffled) were heard by neighbours who lived near Allison and GBC, one neighbour lived in a house at the back of the church (they had a dog called scrap) and the other neighbour across the road. There weren’t any screams heard in the Kholo Creek area, only dogs barking and howling. I didn’t know that Nige had a white Parado the same as GBC. Where did you read that info as I would be interested to read that.

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  73. Reality Bites says:
    July 6, 2012 at 11:21 pm

    thank you for that link…father and son must be getting a bit edgy by now not being able to have a private conversation to get their stories straight re their midnight phone call….don’t you just love…NOT… the Parado in the photo in the link with its ‘ SETTLED’ number plate. Well GBC hasn’t settled any home sales of late however he is now very SETTLED in his little cell .

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  74. Hi Judy, I remember that the three screams were heard near Rees Way/Rafting ground Rd, which is maybe a kilometer from the BC house. One of the residents was photographed and it was in the CM at the time. The immediate neighbours of the BC house’s dog was barking on the night Allison was last seen, which they said was unusual for their dog. There have also been reports (perhaps from people living close to the BC’s who were interviewed by police?) that shouting or an argument was heard in the BC house that evening.

    Very interesting posts, Theorist, much of what you say makes sense. I posted this morning on the Lounge thread that I read somewhere (can’t remember where now, does anyone else recall this?) that there was a party being held on Rafting Ground Rd the night Allison disappeared. If there were people around on the road-side, it might explain why GBC returned from Kholo Creek via Kenmore, to avoid suspicion. It’s also possible he stopped at his parents on the return from KC via Kenmore. Their house is not far from the corner of RG Rd and Moggill Rd, so it’s a possibility? I think that white Prado you mention in the photo with the ‘Settled’ numberplate was GBCs? Perhaps they’ve removed the C21 signage?

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  75. Theorist – I like your theories!!!

    The idea of him going first down Brookfield Rd, just around the showgrounds to Rafting Ground Rd and took her out of the car just near the creek, then because she woke up and screamed (maybe got wet hence the blood spreading in the car) he was forced to go to the scout ground (where a gate which is normally locked was found open the next morning according to a previous poster who lives nearby).

    This sounds very plausible to me….Will explain too why he would avoid Rafting ground road on the return journey, in case the police was alerted and present here.

    Maybe he deliberately put left his phone home on the charger when he went to do the body dump, so that his movements could not be traced afterwards via his mobile phone. So he had to give daddy the heads up and leave the phone behind when he left. Did daddy come over to assist, or did he only supply last minute instructions and advice???

    If Nigel’s white Prado (visible in http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/gerard-baden-clays-father-nigel-denied-close-contact-with-his-son-at-arthur-gorrie-correctional-centre/story-fncynkc6-1226419500345 was the one seen by the roundabout cameras, it means he was definitely our assisting, not just advising.

    Theorist you say he made the phone call to his dad at 1:48am – in the media the 1 min 23 sec call was reported as having been made at ~12:30am. Did he make a second call to daddy at 1:48am???? Was this maybe when he returned?? Did daddy have to come and help with the clean-up before sunrise? Or if daddy was already there the call must have been to tell mommy the dump was done and they are just cleaning up…not to worry – all good….Bwana will be home for a pash in another hour or two…??? Sickening!

    Just made me thing of two more previous posts by locals – I won’t be able to find them now so if the original posters can elaborate, it will be good:

    The first one was a person who used their horse to help search for Allison in the early days, and the horse behaved very strangely in a certain part of Rafting Ground Rd – as if something was not right there. I do believe animals can sense things we can’t….this ties in with your theory that she was initially taken to the creek in this area.

    The second was a more recent post – where a local spotted the 2 senior BCs sitting in their car behaving strangely – ‘staring into space’ somewhere in Rafting Ground Road. Is this where they know the actual killing finally took place? Are they perhaps still looking for that lost phone, or are they just attracted to the place as killers sometimes are – returning to the scene of the crime?????

    The mind boggles…..

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  76. Theorist 11.52pm
    I dont “like” your theory! Because it is most unpalateable. Horrible in fact.

    But I think you’ve NAILED IT! Everything fits together perfectly. Unbelievable.

    And the “blood curdling” screams which were initially reported.
    They were very quickly toned down to have been maybe kids partying. Shades of a coverup?
    That partying ” quick coverup” has NEVER been properly refuted. Never.

    To Moonlight and her horse “who was playing up” during the search.
    I think you are being called upon again.

    Calling Moonlight! Hellooo?

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  77. Regarding blood curdling screams
    There’s a world of difference between blood curdling screams and kids yahooing.
    Even very loud yahoos. High spirited yahoos. Party screams. Nope. Still doesn’t come anywhere near close to blood curdling screams.
    Smelled very much like someone needed to get people including QPS off and away from the red hot trail. Fast.
    This whole matter has reeked of decoys. And lies. And deceipts. And arrogance. And cold heartednesss.

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  78. Hi Queensland Country Lady, 12:00pm 7th July :D

    What “Theorist” referred to is what I mentioned as my theory on 22nd June, 12:45pm.

    Rafting Ground Road, near the creek, gives us the absolute creeps, which to me means something happened there. I mentioned this in one of my first posts in April.

    What disturbs me, is that three of us on Robbo’s site have now come up with the same theory, it is heart wrenching.

    This is what I submitted on 2012/06/22 at 12:45 pm:

    Quote: I wonder if Allison’s tooth was chipped while being allegedly smothered. Perhaps she woke up on the way to Kholo Creek, screaming in the car, on Rafting Ground Road, things developed from there. Unquote.

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  79. Hi Moonlight
    Glad you are back.Thankyou for replying.
    Wish you could copy and paste your theory of 22June at 12.45pm again here.
    Very odd three separate people have come up the same theory from three different perpespectives.
    And now more clues are available.
    Rafting Ground Road wouldn’t be giving you the creeps for no good reason.
    Allison speaking up?
    (I have witnessed this type of phenomenon even years after an accidental death. And I am not even pyschic)

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  80. Dear Queensland Country Lady,

    Thank you so much, it is lovely to be back :D and more than lovely to speak with you!

    Rafting Ground Road, before Allison’s death, was always a pleasure to drive through. I feel that Allison could be speaking up, Queensland Country Lady. When Allison died, we drove to the house, and then drove forward along Brookfield Road, and we both felt the atmosphere; however, at Rafting Ground Road, it was worse.

    My theory was short and sweet:

    Quote: I wonder if Allison’s tooth was chipped while being allegedly smothered. Perhaps she woke up on the way to Kholo Creek, screaming in the car, on Rafting Ground Road, things developed from there. Unquote.

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  81. …since we are theorizing…

    She gets home from her hair dresser looking nice and feeling ‘up’ (I know I do after a trip to the hair dresser) He is NOT happy, he blames her for his credit card ‘bounce’ . They have a huge fight, He loses it and beats her up, She threatens to leave him, to expose him….he can’t have that ! SHE will NOT bring Gerard Baden-Clay down ! He is important. He has a conference the next day, Toni will be there, things are going to get better soon, so soon. What will clients think if he was had up for wife beating ! He gets really angry and kills her. Panic struck he calls Daddy.
    ‘They’ come up with the suicide idea (well, she was depressed…) and they stuffed that up.

    I think they actually thought and still think they will get away with it as long as their stories are straight. I think the cops have found a couple of ‘holes’ in GBC’s claimed ‘recollection’ of events/times and this is possibly why NBC is not allowed contact visits.

    This ‘made up’ theory of mine added to yours above is also possible as I believe (some one said) there were holes in the walls and let’s remember, he was scratched quite badly it seems, She put up a hellava fight !

    I suppose until we get more info all we can do is theorize..

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  82. Can anyone remember who it was who recently (maybe in the past week or so) said she saw the 2 senior BC’s sit in their car and just stare in the distance – I think it was early one morning….??? This seems all the more suspicious in the light of the possibility that the first dumping ground trialed was the Creek area off Rafting Ground Rd – as suggested he may have thought she was dead but she may just have been blacked out and came to screaming, and with people hearing he had to soilence her quickly and get out of there….

    Why would they be sitting there in their car there? Did NBC come to show EBC the scene of the final struggle? The scene that has changed the trajectory of their lives forever???

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