UPDATE-Gerard Baden-Clay will return to court on September 3 2012


Previous threads can be found using the links below, One being very first and so on…

One (26/04/12) here Two (14/05/12)  here Three (17/05/12) here Four (20/05/2012) here Five  (23/05/12) here Six (26/05/12) here Seven (28/05/12) here Eight (30/0512) here Nine (02/06/12) here Ten (08/06/12) here Eleven (11/06/12) here  Twelve 13/06/12 here Thirteen 17/06/12 here Fourteen 20/06/12 here Fifteen 22/06/12 here Sixteen 24/06/12 here Seventeen 26/06/12 here

A MAGISTRATE said he was “flabbergasted” that police would need four to five months to scour Gerard Baden-Clay’s finances – a process set to delay court proceedings.

The Money trail will take months to unravel

Prosecutor Danny Boyle told Magistrate Chris Callaghan they would be unable to give Baden-Clay’s defence team the full brief of evidence because an investigative accountant would need until mid November to analyse bank accounts and insurance policies.

Baden-Clay, 41, who did not appear today, is charged with murdering his wife Allison on April 19 and dumping her body on the banks of a creek.

An earlier court hearing was told Baden-Clay is $1 million in debt and stood to gain about that from his wife’s life insurance and superannuation policies.

Mr Boyle said police were also waiting on computer and phone examinations, as well as post mortem results.

“The post mortem tests are outstanding … the forensics pathologist was away last week and this week until Wednesday,” he said.

A recent court hearing heard police still do not have a cause of death.

Police have so far taken statements from 330 people and still have another 50 to 100 to go.

“The investigative accountant is still to come,” Mr Boyle said.

“The accountant has indicated that it will be mid November.”

Magistrate Callaghan said he was shocked it could take so long.

“You’re joking, aren’t you,” he said.

“I can’t believe for a minute that it’s going to take five months for an accountant to look into the finances of one person.”

Mr Boyle said the records were “voluminous”.

Magistrate Callaghan ordered that the brief of evidence be handed to the defence by no later than August 20, except for the accountant’s statement.

The matter will return to court on September 3 for a committal mention.

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431 thoughts on “UPDATE-Gerard Baden-Clay will return to court on September 3 2012

  1. So the cops have only got one pathologist and what seems to be a useless accounting team, to continue to drag out this already dark case. Really what evidence of the murder being the husband does the police actually have? what they have is circumstantial, the man was in debt, the Mrs was insured for a similar amount, the man had a scratch on his head or whatever it was yet is charged with his wife’s murder on what grounds?
    Its a case of guilty until proven innocent, and in retrospect all Mr clay had was motive then again that could be the same reason to charge the additional 330 people who no doubt had some form of motive.
    pfff justice system
    Cheers Robbo
    Angel

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  2. Why was the magistrate flabbergasted at the time for the forensic accounting? The legal profession in particular family lawyers are masters at creating a mountain of work for relatively simple financial affairs and because the crown is paying, it’s a open slather for the forensic accountants. The legal fraternity have a vested interest in making this the mother of all trials. It funds their lifestyles and toys. If pushed come to shove, they could probably get a lot of the records from the defendants tax accountant and insurance, finance companies and use his agency accountant and prepare a report in a few weeks. $1m in debts is hardly much and a few insurance policies. The magistrate just needs to ask any family law litigant how much time and money is involved in simple family law cases, milked by the lawyers, barristers and hangers on!!

    (A blatant money grab by some Blowfish? Strike while the iron is hot? Make hay while the sun shines? It does seem a long time for one person, but lets also remember he was a business man, Esteemed member of chamber of Commerce from memory…So what may seem simple on the outside, might be a case of unravelling a whole stack of stuff…

    Then again I am no business man nor number cruncher…way out of my league)

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  3. A few people have made some interesting comments in the lounge section today, in this regard:

    GG speculated that maybe the financial assessment is axpected to take so long is because GBC may have off-shore accounts, or perhaps money or assets hidden in other people’s names.

    I had not thought much of this before, but if he had false aliases that he used to communicate with msitresses (eg Bruce Overland!) he may have opened bank accounts etc in false names too!!! All of this will need to be found somehoe by investigative accountants.

    They will have to track where ever $ of the million that he borrpwed went. Maybe much of it is sitting somewhere ‘hidden’ from view, so he may look in dire straits, but if he remained a free man and set up shop with his next partner (victim?), he might have dug into his secret stashes…..definitely a possibility I’d say……

    A post by Pugville reminded me that NBC was the financial director (or whatever his portfolio was called) of Westside century 21. Did he really have no clue about finances and it went $million in debt due to his mismanagement, or was he perhaps party to embezzling funds???

    Also it occurs to me NBC has had a lot of time and opportunity while moving offices for GBC, hastily bringing parcels of sorts to his home the arvo GBC was refused bail, and also clearing out the entire GBC home recently, to destroy evidence of financial dealings and hidden assets. This would make traceability a lot more difficult.

    As Pugville said, they need to be thorough, perhaps they will nail NGB too as an accessory as he had motive also – to get back his loans ….

    ….and maybe benefit from ‘hidden assets’ too if there are some …..

    Zim had a similar feeling: “debts were huge and yet there does not seem to be any assets. Where did all that borrowed money go ? We already know he had one other name (Bruce) maybe Bruce had bank accounts or Bruce had a few other names….maybe ?”

    Definitely a few possible issues here that can complicate matters substantially re investigating financial dealings, with the financial director seemingly also being an accessory on some level to the murder. It is not exactly a straight forward case. I think the number of people involved with the finances and the murder (which appear to be linked) makes it very tricky….

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    • Summed up nicely RIP.
      Follow the money trail to the motive.
      GBC and definately pashy pops too, he had alot of $$ invested.
      And also gerbil’s mum, where is she heading with hubby & son up for murder charges?
      I think she must’ve looked over the 3 girls while everything was going down.
      All had massive motive and opportunity.
      There was no going back.
      And *cringe* good people do bad things. Hmm sometimes ..
      Motive all the way .. ends to a means.

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  4. You put that together quite well RIP. Following a number of money trails is not as easy as just obtaining information from the tax office. They don’t always have all the information.

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  5. Where did all that money go? I recall GBC claiming that he needed the money to inject into the business – guess this might be something the prosecution is wanting to disprove among other things.

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  6. All Mr clay had was motive then again that could be the same reason to charge the additional 330 people who no doubt had some form of motive. Angel, sounds like you knew allison personally.

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  7. Just remembered something else – did TMcH not say that GBC supposedly told her he had ‘hidden’ assets???….was this perhaps amongst the bail hearing evidence?

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  8. The $1m may have been borrowed over some time to keep the business afloat. It’s not a lot of money when paying rents, leases on vehicles, wages, in addition to your own personal expenses, not to mention keep a mistress or 3!
    From what I can gather the business was going down the Shyte shoot since the floods Jan 2011. $1m these days in business is pittance.
    I pity those (except the BC seniors and TMc) who loaned money to this monster in good faith, they’d be feeling pretty hard done by right now.
    They can kiss their moolah goodbye, that’s for sure

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  9. So much deception, what a monumental mess.

    I am surprised that these people had so much free access to simply remove/destroy whatever they could, and almost 2 whole months in which to do it.

    WHAT were in those bags so hastily removed from the boot of the seniors’ car and rushed into the house with the help of neighbours????

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  10. RIP I heard/read somewhere that Allison and GBC had shares too although I have no idea in what or how many. Perhaps he has money in Sth Africa?? who knows?

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  11. Hoping this is NOW the main thread, (aside from the Lounge people), for serious observations … over what is going to be a VERY long wait.

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  12. Hi Interested, it is tough to keep up on it all here…I like to think of this thread as the current thread moving forward…More to come tomorrow, but the old threads will stay there, but comments closed, so we have the history, yet still move forward…

    Cheers

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  13. So the police have difficulty getting all the information together to present to the court on time.
    I am on a road trip at the moment. 2 days of driving with nothing else to think about. I go through all the facts in my mind, keeps me awake on the long drive. There are so many gaps and holes in this case, so many different theories can be made. No-wonder the police are having a hard time keeping up.

    Rewind to Thursday 21st June. GBC’s bail hearing at the Supreme Court:

    Senior Detective Inspector Sergeant says:
    Here, the results of the Face Time Call Log have just arrived, but the bail hearing is only minutes away. There is no possible way we can stall the proceedings over there at the court to get this information to the Prosecutor in time.

    Constable Whosey says:
    Don’t worry Sir, we might get really really lucky, and some unscrupulous person might bomb scare the court house.

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  14. Feel the need to comment
    QPS – excellent work from word go
    The affidavits in the bail application should be proof enough that they have a lot of evidence and have done extensive investigation – not all of which needs to be disclosed at this point.
    350 statement and more to come for the Committal
    No there is not one pathologist but yes there would be one very experienced forensic
    Pathologist in charge of this case co-ordinating with interstate, local and overseas experts who necessarily is the “voice” and yes, can have a week off.
    Re forensic accounting – is it likely that a man who is apparently continuing to run a solvent company and successfully getting a lease in a vehicle eight weeks before whilst apparently in debt over $1m just has some simple bank statements and tax docs?
    I expect the financial web of companies, trusts, hidden accounts etc would be hugely complex.
    Give the QPS and DPP and court system the respect they have shown they deserve in this case

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  15. Brissiebella says:
    July 9, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    It was GHS with the information that fell off the back of the truck that told us about the shares..GBC withdrew his half being $67,000..sure is a dodgy family ;)

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  16. Robbo,
    as someone who has administered another (very different) site for 3 years,
    I so recognise everything you have done, steered (great word) and achieved,
    and been prepared to put up with.

    I thank you for your patience and great work sir.

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  17. Settle down maj, sounds like you have a severe case of sour grapes!!!

    I’ll pretend I didn’t read your garbage!!

    sicko

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  18. The investigation into the financials no doubt will be complex. Like Pensive I think QP has done a sterling job so far, so we should trust that they know what they are doing and that the expected lengthy investigation will be due to the complexity of the case. They know a lot more than we or the magistrate do, and no doubt they would not want to reveal the reasons now, so they’d have to just cop the magistrate’s opinion that the expected time period seems rather long. In time the reason for this will likely become clearer.

    Initially the financial side looked quite simple, people were very quick to calculate that GBC owes about $million, which Allison’s insurance pretty much covered.

    But considering the company supposedly had a great ‘financial director/advisor’ (Bwana) at its helm and he was not retrenched at any stage while this seemingly insurmountable debt developed, it does seem rather odd….

    So one does wonder:
    Who really managed the company’s finances and made the calls – GBC or his ‘financial director’?
    Is the debt real?
    Are there off-shore accounts relating to businesses or individuals
    Are there as yet unknown assets, bank a/c’s, shares etc in own and/or falce names like Bruce Overlander – others….?
    When and by whom was the idea to obtain Allison’s insurance money initiated – ie who masterminded this ‘financial plan’?
    Were money & assets ‘hidden’ concurrent with the debt running to approx the same amount as her insurance cover?

    ……..many questions to be answered…….

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  19. Maj:
    as tolerant as I am for the right of free speech,

    “the police in every state are useless people,any moron from the gutter can become an officer,their not hired to think,they are hired to do what their told by their corrupt pedo bosses”

    is crap and I for one am amazed it’s allowed to stay here!

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  20. Yes interested, I agree totally!! I find it highly offensive.
    Perhaps Robbo’s busy with his new baby right now???

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  21. Well while no new evidence has been revealed today, at least a little insight has been gained at the status of the investigations. Sounds like the forensic accountant will be able to put his/her kids through University with the fees they’ll be able to charge from the case. Surprised they expect it to take 5 months, but if that’s their initial estimate, I’ll wager once they get into it, it’ll take longer than their original estimate.

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  22. Um, wow Maj, there are some sweeping generalisations, gross exaggerations and a lot of subjective anger there – are you sure you are in the right place on this site?.

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  23. Makes me wonder how Maj knows so many police officers personally to know what you know about each and everyone of them. Unless I got the wrong impression, though I doubt it since you made the comment “the police in every state are useless people etc”. I doubt that you would know every single one of them but you must certainly have had a lot to do with many of them to tar them all with the same brush.

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  24. Hi Yoshi,
    What are your thoughts, if any, that the prosecution don’t have enough for a conviction at this time?

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  25. There are some classic quotes in that outburst but this is brilliant: ‘there are thousands of children being raped by police,lawyers and judges as we speak in qld’!! 1000′s? As we speak? I have a number of family and friends who are members of the legal fraternity and I can assure you, most of them are asleep by this time of night :)

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  26. http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2007/s1898702.htm

    http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/queensland-police-misconduct-files-reveal-corruption-favouristism-sexual-misconduct/story-e6freoof-1226115497051

    [quote] A POLICE officer said he would let a woman off for mail theft if she had sex with him, another three officers were caught stealing while on duty and 10 more were nabbed for drink-driving – including one on the way to work, fraud and misconduct investigations have revealed[end quote]

    http://detectivepaulwilson.blogspot.com.au/2010/04/detetctive-chief-superintendent-paul.html

    http://qldcops.blogspot.com.au/2009/08/corrupt-cop-still-in-qld.html

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/bikie-blows-whistle-on-murder-and-drugs/2007/07/08/1183833330193.html

    https://sites.google.com/site/nswcnn/

    [quote]
    Victorian Cops win at corruption – yet again! CORRUPTION investigators are closing in on several Victoria Police officers. Office of Police Integrity director George Brouwer revealed yesterday that the OPI had uncovered convincing evidence of police corruption. He told the Herald Sun these activities included:

    STEALING while executing search warrants on homes.

    DRUG dealing and giving the green light to other dealers.

    INTIMIDATING fellow officers into not reporting corrupt activity.

    CORRUPT associations with private investigators and security industry staff.

    INAPPROPRIATE use of confidential Victoria Police information.

    USING the bank accounts of fellow officers to hide cash and avoid paying tax and child support[end quote]

    https://sites.google.com/site/nswcnn/

    [quote] THE OPI is conducting 40 separate investigations into allegedly corrupt activity by serving and former Victoria Police officers.

    MORE than 50 officers will be investigated over unexplained assets involving millions of dollars.

    BASIC anti-corruption measures adopted by police forces around Australia have not been implemented by Victoria Police.

    THE OPI’s use of secret sting operations to trap suspect officers is about to be dramatically increased.

    AN investigation has started into inappropriate use of capsicum spray amid complaints of over-zealousness.

    THE OPI has held 24 secret hearings in which some officers have confessed to corrupt activity and others have dobbed in allegedly corrupt colleagues.

    Mr Ashton said some officers had appeared before the secret hearings as a means of reporting corrupt activity without fear of reprisal from fellow police.

    “We have had police in our in-camera hearings confessing their crimes and also implicating other police in serious criminal offences,” he said[end quote]

    http://blogs.abc.net.au/queensland/2009/07/queensland-police-corruption-unveiled-.html

    [quote] Three serving policemen went public last month claiming colleagues had been falsifying search warrant applications for the past five years to boost their monthly quotas[end quote]

    http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/police-not-looking-hard-enough-for-corruption-clues/2008/11/05/1225560941059.html

    Not all of what Maj had to say was incorrect, unfortunately

    Above is just a tiny sample of information freely available online

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  27. It’s possible that the prosecution have quite a substantial amount of evidence but need more to charge an accomplice which could have something to do with the financial side of things.

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  28. Let’s not devote any more time or energy to the wanderings of a poster like like Maj, please.

    This site has more to offer.

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  29. Jen, yes, perhaps that’s the case…
    Quite frustrating waiting to see whether BC senior or somebody else for that matter will be arrested. Time will tell

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  30. Hi Brissiebella,

    I can only talk from limited experience, but I expect we would be lucky to have had 1/3 of the evidence the Police have against GBC revealed at this point. So they probably have more evidence that proves he killed Allison I would have thought.

    The “problem” with a lot of murder cases though is proving intent on the part of the accused. Very easy in the absence of eye-witnesses or previous threats by the accused against the victim etc that an accused intended to kill a victim. It’s very easy for an accused to say “we had a fight, she was punching me, she scratched my face, She went crazy. I grabbed her arms and pushed her to get her away from me. She hit her head on the wall and fell to the ground. I tried to revive her but she had stopped breathing and I panicked”.

    So I imagine the investigations into the financial side is to shore up their case on the fact that GBC’s financial predicament was so dire that his conduct pre and post Allison’s death was such that everything points to him intending to kill Allison to relieve himself of his perceived problems. That there is no other likely explanation. That it was not manslaughter. My 2 cents for what it’s worth ;-)

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  31. the police want to keep mr g in prison for as long as they can,so they will use whatever tactics to delay court precedings,even though i believe he did it,he should not be in jail,he is innocent until proven guilty

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  32. Obviously there is some personal grudge where Maj is concerned hence the somewhat exaggerated outburst. I suggest too not to mention the suburb of police stations in future. Due to the work I do it just so happens I have a need to communicate with Officers from that very police station. Be careful of what you say you never know who is reading these comments.

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  33. Maj – with the utmost respect, you really need to see a doctor to get some medication for your bile problem.

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  34. I posted this earlier:

    http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2007/s1898702.htm

    http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/queensland-police-misconduct-files-reveal-corruption-favouristism-sexual-misconduct/story-e6freoof-1226115497051

    [quote] A POLICE officer said he would let a woman off for mail theft if she had sex with him, another three officers were caught stealing while on duty and 10 more were nabbed for drink-driving – including one on the way to work, fraud and misconduct investigations have revealed[end quote]

    http://detectivepaulwilson.blogspot.com.au/2010/04/detetctive-chief-superintendent-paul.html

    http://qldcops.blogspot.com.au/2009/08/corrupt-cop-still-in-qld.html

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/bikie-blows-whistle-on-murder-and-drugs/2007/07/08/1183833330193.html

    https://sites.google.com/site/nswcnn/

    [quote]
    Victorian Cops win at corruption – yet again! CORRUPTION investigators are closing in on several Victoria Police officers. Office of Police Integrity director George Brouwer revealed yesterday that the OPI had uncovered convincing evidence of police corruption. He told the Herald Sun these activities included:

    STEALING while executing search warrants on homes.

    DRUG dealing and giving the green light to other dealers.

    INTIMIDATING fellow officers into not reporting corrupt activity.

    CORRUPT associations with private investigators and security industry staff.

    INAPPROPRIATE use of confidential Victoria Police information.

    USING the bank accounts of fellow officers to hide cash and avoid paying tax and child support[end quote]

    https://sites.google.com/site/nswcnn/

    [quote] THE OPI is conducting 40 separate investigations into allegedly corrupt activity by serving and former Victoria Police officers.

    MORE than 50 officers will be investigated over unexplained assets involving millions of dollars.

    BASIC anti-corruption measures adopted by police forces around Australia have not been implemented by Victoria Police.

    THE OPI’s use of secret sting operations to trap suspect officers is about to be dramatically increased.

    AN investigation has started into inappropriate use of capsicum spray amid complaints of over-zealousness.

    THE OPI has held 24 secret hearings in which some officers have confessed to corrupt activity and others have dobbed in allegedly corrupt colleagues.

    Mr Ashton said some officers had appeared before the secret hearings as a means of reporting corrupt activity without fear of reprisal from fellow police.

    “We have had police in our in-camera hearings confessing their crimes and also implicating other police in serious criminal offences,” he said[end quote]

    http://blogs.abc.net.au/queensland/2009/07/queensland-police-corruption-unveiled-.html

    [quote] Three serving policemen went public last month claiming colleagues had been falsifying search warrant applications for the past five years to boost their monthly quotas[end quote]

    http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/police-not-looking-hard-enough-for-corruption-clues/2008/11/05/1225560941059.html

    Not all of what Maj had to say was incorrect, unfortunately

    Above is just a tiny sample of information freely available online

    ————————————-

    Why attack the messenger (in this instance, Maj)

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  35. Sorry for getting distracted guys.

    I have no doubt that NBC will be arrested in the near future – I believe that the focus has been on ensuring an arrest without bail for GBC, and now that the mention is over they can redirect their focus. They have until September to present their evidence at the committal hearing.

    I deal with forensic accountant’s regularly. If his financial web and historical transactions involve trusts, private company’s, shares, entities and sub-entities and have overseas implications then the time frame proposed is not unreasonable.

    The prosecution will not want to present half-baked evidence at the committal.

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  36. Yoshi, thank you for your reply, I see what you mean about shoring up the financial side of the case. Your comments are always valued. Thank you :)

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  37. I am really struggling with some of the stuff presented in court. We have no cause of death, no confirmed place of death, one chipped tooth, luminol (but not proven blood) and one very hungry caterpiller (no I don’t buy the caterpillar story–but a very angry wife may have caused this, but that does not necessarily equate to the fact he murdered her if there is no evidence of injury) and the police have not even begun to look closely at his financial affairs but have theorised that money is a probable motive. I believe Angel Fire does have some valid points, No I do not believe GBC was entirely truthful about the night Alison disappeared but could have been lying initially to protect his ego not necessarily to cover up Alison’s death. I just have an uneasy feeling that, just like LIndy Chamberlain who did not act in the way the public perceived as normal, that the press have been baying for GBCs blood and the police have complied due to a lot of circumstancial stuff. I have some doubt at the moment and have had this doubt since the beginning. No I do not know GBC or anyonce else who knows him but I am yet to be convinced beyond reasonable doubt GBC murdered his wife. Now if I were to pass judgement on his morality that would be a different story.

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  38. I am really struggling with some of the stuff presented in court. We have no cause of death, no confirmed place of death, one chipped tooth, luminol (but not proven blood) and one very hungry caterpiller (no I don’t buy the caterpillar story–but a very angry wife may have caused this, but that does not necessarily equate to the fact he murdered her if there is no evidence of injury) and the police have not even begun to look closely at his financial affairs but have theorised that money is a probable motive. I believe Angel Fire does have some valid points, No I do not believe GBC was entirely truthful about the night Alison disappeared but could have been lying initially to protect his ego not necessarily to cover up Alison’s death. I just have an uneasy feeling that, just like LIndy Chamberlain who did not act in the way the public perceived as normal, that the press have been baying for GBCs blood and the police have complied due to a lot of circumstancial stuff. I have some doubt at the moment and have had this doubt since the beginning. No I do not know GBC or anyonce else who knows him but I am yet to be convinced beyond reasonable doubt GBC murdered his wife. Now if I were to pass judgement on his morality that would be a different story.

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  39. I am calling it a night. Good see some intelligent posters here tonight (bar 1 of course). Once again Yoshi thank you for your input your experience far outweighs mine.

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  40. I think we’ve learned a thing or two since the Chamberlain disaster. Just can’t see that scenario playing out again. I do believe QPS are on it, and have full confidence they’ll get their man, with or without accomplice(s).

    GHS – nothing new falling off the proverbial tonight?

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    • Hello Reality..no deliveries tonight, and possibly never again, more’s the pity.

      But I did (perhaps foolishly) respond in the Lounge to a comment around lunchtime that left me gob-smacked…in fact, I’m still trying to come to terms with the rationale behind it.

      I had indicated that I would no longer venture there, but my pride and incredulity got the better of me.

      Take care.

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  41. i believe if the judge is not swayed by the media,gerard will be released from jail and the police service will be sued by him for millions of dollars for false arrest, imprisonment,sexual humiliation in jail,perjury and the list goes on and on,i hope he wins and receives the cash and everything thats coming to him

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    • ellablue, what false arrest, sexual humiliation, and perjury are you referring to? Considering that there was sufficient evidence to deny bail, no sexual humiliation has been mentioned and there have not yet been any witnesses so that discounts perjury. Sorry but I really don’t get your comments.

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    • ellablue, maj & b beach,

      I really believe there is a big surprise for you as to how this case ends.

      Let’s just all wait patiently, shall we?

      meanwhile I would love to hear more from you…. so just for the record when we come back to this blog… when this case is finally over.

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  42. What next?
    •A forensic accountant must report on GBC’s financial affairs.
    •Police must obtaining a further 50 – 100 witness statements.
    •Police waiting on computer and phone analysis, as well as more results from the post-mortem.
    Looks like we’re in for a bit of a wait!

    In a nutshell: “From role model to accused murderer” @ http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/from-role-model-to-accused-murderer-20120615-20fa5.html

    At 12:45pm today on the MEANS thread, a poster called “PJ” posted the following: “Alledgedly Gerad Baden-Clay drowned his wife in the bath,in the process she scratched his face and torso (hence the beard after her death) while she scratched him he was aware of DNA getting under her finger tips, he cut her hand off in order for this evidence to not be found. (hence being charged with interfering with a dead body). His father has alledgedly been given immunity from prosecution for alledgedly assisting Gerad move the body of his wife in return for ratting on his son.”

    Is this info just a red herring??? We have speculated about this COD before. We have also suspected NBC of having been involved. If involved at this level, can NBC get immunity? Is the dealer not just as bad as the stealer? Maybe Yoshi or one of the legal gurus can explain a bit more about criteria for ‘immunity’ and what it means exactly to the resipient.

    Another interesting bit of information was posted at 9:12pm by Kenmore Mum in the lounge: “…I’m wondering whether the seniors have moved into a rental. They have been going to a different address & he’s using G’s car…”

    Have the senior BC’s moved or temporarily staying at a different address? Another family property perhaps? Are they using G’s car instead of their own? If so, why….??? Neighbours know too much? Concerned they may dob them in? House/car under investigation?? Try to get away from media? Maybe none of the above, just visiting someone???

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  43. “In their court affidavit, police say BC allegedly had his financial adviser call about Allison’s life insurance policy, letting the company know there was a pending claim. He did this, police told the court, before the body had even been identified.” (from the bail affidavit)

    Now I can only think of one certain “financial adviser” would have the temerity, the cavalier disregard for decency and the arrogance… to embark on this unconventional course of financial intrigue…

    There can only be ONE financial adviser with a web so twisted that it will take several more months to unravel it…

    I am sure we are going to hear a bit more about this “financial adviser”, who I suspect was more of a “financial mismangement enhancement facilitator”… and the role he has played in this sordid affair…

    ALSO this family gave police, SES, ABC’s family and everyone a grand royal two-fingered salute and caused maximum incovnenience to all…

    …so if the system “drags its feet” then that is poetic justice IMO…

    (has anyone noticed the newspaper online reports reported some information, then removed that information…. such as the two-contact runs of blood that were in sufficient volume to pool on the floor…)

    (and where they said they interfering with a corpse charged related to leaving the body at Kholo)

    To Gerbil Hunting Season…

    Your posts were absolute bombshells and left everyone shellshocked, thus lack of reply… You clearly have the goods… and were generous and thoughtful enough to go through it with a fine toothcomb and share with us the tastiest morsels…

    Most people understand and enjoy colloquialisms and Figures of Speech and understand how some phrases have entered the Aussie vernacular…. But not all ;)

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    • Hello JJE – thank you for affirming my belief that what I shared was new – I thought I was very careful on each occasion to preface the postings with a mea culpa in case I was presenting old news.

      In fact, every morning Mrs Scott commenced her daily diary with words to the effect of “well nothing new again folks” and I began to doubt myself and my faculties of recall.

      And yes, had I realised that commentators took me by my word when I mentioned “falling off the back of a truck” and the other well known “I’d have to kill you” line, I would never have used them, obviously.

      Not to worry, it’s all old news now, but was initially posted with good intent.

      I was taken to task again today for “odd” behaviour by the same family, so defended myself as best I knew how through a mixture of hurt and outrage, but will now depart gracefully, as I promised to do yesterday.

      Best of luck to all of you who share the passion for justice in this sordid case.

      My thoughts have always been with Allison, her daughters and the amazing Dickie family.

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  44. Dear Gerbil Hunting Season,

    You have always been “real” and down to earth. I enjoy your posts. We need real, level headed people here.

    Please take a break by all means; however, don’t go. You are a good person, and you are rare.

    I admire you. Sending you many hugs from a stranger who cares about you.

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  45. Clueless in Capricorn,

    Same to you. Please don’t go.

    Please take a break, post when you feel comfortable. I become quiet, when things don’t feel right, and they don’t at the moment, please don’t go.

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  46. I second that – GHS take a break by all means but please return, at least to the serious posting thread, if not the lounge. For every one person who misunderstood your comments and facts there are a heap who appreciate them :)

    Thanks for your detailed post at 10:28pm. It is shocking to say the least, but excellent with allegations being supported. WOW….how does one weed out this sort of behaviour from an institution that we all depend on far maintaining law and order, and how does one restore integrity???? It seems vital there should be a plan of action and the problem is acted upon – is it?

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  47. A useful post in the lounge area:

    Interestingly, at least 3 people in Townsville have not been ‘debriefed’:

    Brissiebella (12:23am): “Interesting posts on the Northreach Baptist Church fb wall

    Jeny Gehan
    may god condemn the perp to an eternity in hell
    about a month ago

    Wendy Wilson
    I agree with you Maria Fotia. May peace and justice prevail for those three young girls who will need God’s strength to get through the rest of their lives. May God give them comfort and watch over them.
    about a month ago

    Maria Fotia
    Maria Fotiaposted toNorthreach Baptist Church
    Can we all pray for 3 little girls in Brisbane tonight who have become orphaned through a henious crime against their mother. Lord please comfort them so that they can know and grow to love you. Lord please bring justice to those that know your word but are disobedient in not coming forward with the truth. We know that only THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE. Amen
    about a month ago

    2 people like this.

    Maria Fotia
    Please pray that the person charged with the murder of a loving mother is not granted bail. May he be judged appropiately according to the laws of the land. It is Gods word that we obey the laws of the land…..Lord you know who else may be involved . May they search their own heart and come forward right now and give themselves up to the authorities. Others should be accountable with any money that is used to aid the alleged perpertrator and accomplices. Anyone wanting to donate…..be wary…..your money could be used against God’s will.
    20 June at 20:00”

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  48. RIP Allison says:
    July 9, 2012 at 11:33 pm

    At 12:45pm today on the MEANS thread, a poster called “PJ” posted the following: “Alledgedly Gerad Baden-Clay drowned his wife in the bath,in the process she scratched his face and torso (hence the beard after her death) while she scratched him he was aware of DNA getting under her finger tips, he cut her hand off in order for this evidence to not be found. (hence being charged with interfering with a dead body).

    RIP, I tend to believe this is how Allison died. I had thoughts one night a few weeks ago about this and couldn’t sleep for thinking about it. I don’t know about the cutting off of her hand, that’s gruesome and I don’t like to think about that… perhaps that did or didn’t happen, but I feel strongly that she was drowned at the hands of GBC.

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  49. Dear Gerbil Hunting Season
    For every one person who attacks you on site there are MANY (like 56 and still counting) who appreciate and look out for your excellent posts.
    So Please after your (short) break, I look forward to meeting you again here.
    Think of it like this. Allison would want you here. Saying “Thank-you GHS Please keep it up”
    Have a lovely day.

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  50. Robbo. I’m sorry if I oversimplified my views on the GBC financial position.

    Let me throw in some more comments.

    Both GBC and BC were hardly farting through silk. They were and are not living in palacial accommodation, nor sporting bling or ostentatious assets such as Ferraris or Super yachts etc. They seem to be very middle class sort of families.

    It would not be difficult to do the appropriate searches of directorships, company names, registered charges over assets and use existing business filings and accoun reconciliations from in the business such as rent roles, real estate trust accounts (which must be independent audited in any case) and other related business records.

    IMO the business may have now been marginal at best in terms of break even and got caught out with the down turn in the economy. It had a too expense new lease and he took on too much to take his previous partners out.

    The only other thought I might throw out there is whether any person was involved in substance abuse to fuel extra curricular activities being a habit and therefore other elements come into play, including unlisted creditors etc etc. This is out there I know but consider the incredible facts that we now know about this case. Welcome thoughts.

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  51. I don’t have much to add I’m afraid but I would like to ask GHS & Capricorn to stay. I have always enjoyed your posts & GHS looked forward to your deliveries.
    I always read the posts in the serious threads but will only add if I have anything real to say.

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  52. RIP Allison says:
    July 10, 2012 at 7:10 am

    these posts were posted on Northbeach Baptist Church fb some time ago and are from people from JFABC…there were more posts before these and the NBBC fb deleted them, they must have decided to leave this lot knowing if they continued to delete them, people would continue to write more…

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  53. Blowfish

    I wondered about the size of the rent roll as an indication to it sustaining normal staples. I agree that he obviously bit off more than he could chew during the economic downturn. A very silly move to relocate on his part. I wondered too about substance abuse. I know it’s “out there” but these days, who knows? perhaps that might also explain his actions toward Allison… (no damn excuse) that “stuff” speed, ice methylamphetamine’s of sorts creates horrid consequences!

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  54. they were already doing forensic testing and then QPS asked for GBC to shave off his beard…to me I read it that the beard is the second round of testing….my opinion…

    “We understand additional tests have been requested which are currently being performed by an interstate laboratory,” he said in a statement. (Quoted from the Newspaper)

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  55. I had a bit of an Epiphany overnight

    ‘Twas flamed by watching GHS’s informative posts and then watch the end result. GHS wanting to leave.
    ‘Twas also associated to (and married to) the attitudes of those who felt the need to judge Lindy Chamberlain, When that case should never have been about guilt or innocence of a mother.
    The case should have been about what happened. Facts. Not silly stories. Unfounded theories. Gossip.

    There are those who feel the need to kill the messenger or simply attack.
    There is nothing anyone can say or do to cause these people to change their attitude or even have them see how damaging that attitude can be.
    Bored house-wife syndrone?

    In Lindys case she was jailed and the simple message that dingos DO take babies got lost.
    Here we have Gerbil Hunting Season risking her lot and getting shot for same.
    I suppose this should be posted in the lounge but the atmosphere there is a bit off, pro tem.

    I should add this Allisons story bears NO resemblance to this. None whatsoever.
    But this comment is simply to express how damaging people can be to people. And for what?
    Simply to be heard? Have a voice? Again for what purpose?

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  56. I can fully understand the need for a comprehensive review of their accounting records. Afterall, if you are building a case around the motive of money you had better have a watertight understanding of the need for money. Here are my observations based upon my experience in this field:

    The C21 proprietors would have known for quite some time that the ship was floundering.

    There is much historical evidence that business people in these circumstances begin to plan for LAL (life after the liquidation).

    This usually means secreting funds away where they cannot be found. Just ask the tax officers involved in Operation Wickenby trying to find the money trail of Paul Hogan, Stropp and quite a number of wealthy businesss people whether this is an easy or fast process.

    The magistrates comments yesterday in this regard were true to form of my belief that lawyers have no understanding of accounting….none! I have appeared as the expert accounting witness in a number of cases and have always come away non-plussed at their lack of basic accounting knowledge.

    So, the mere act of deliberately and deceitfully squirrelling away funds would certainly assist the motive aspect and doubtless, there will be a few creditors who will be relieved as well..should anything come to light.

    Moreover, it aids the case for premeditated murder surely.

    BTW, I’m sure the Police have found a few anomolies that have made them consider a further detailed financial examination. You just know.

    Plus, if the “financial manager” (dad) was involved it will certainly aid in any actions in that area. But the big word here is “if”…we just don’t know as yet and my post here is merely to provide a different slant on the need for forensic accouting and the time it may take.

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  57. To GHS….

    Please ignore the negative posts, I feel very confident in saying that your input is regarded very highly by the majority.

    My interest level always rises when I see your name as I know I will be reading something very informative.

    Looking forward to your next post.

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  58. It is nice to have one serious thread back :) I realise we are in for the long haul so we won’t have major events to discuss daily, but if we keep the posts intelligent and without the somewhat emotional drama that plagues the lounge, it should remain interesting for all concerned.

    We have lost a few good posters as a result of the abovementioned dramas. I do hope they stop by occasionally and when they see we have it together on the on-topic thread, they’ll return here.

    I see the thumbs have disappeared but the reply buttons are back. I don’t know how you all feel, but I found replying makes it difficult to keep track of all the comments, because one has to keep scrolling through all the posts since the start of the thread to see what replies people have left. The longer the thead gets, the more posts just get lost this way, because people do not want to scroll back pages and pages to read replies. Then people stop reading others’ replies and keep repeating the same stuff over and over or keep asking the same questions over and over.

    Personally I think having the posts in chronological order is much easier, one only needs to read from the time one was last on the blog. There is then no reason with this thread only containing on-topic discussion, why everyone can not read all posts and for us to always all be on the same page – no endless repeating. How does eveyone else feel about this?

    I am going to keep posting chronologically and just reference the posts I reply to by time – see below:

    Blowfish (8:39am) and Brissiebella (9:02am) I have not even considered substance abuse as a possible expense and of course a possible reason for the seemingly changed behaviour of GBC, considering he was supposedly a pillar of society 4 years ago and spiraled into an abyss of extramarital affairs, financial troubles and now the most awful murder of a loving and kind person who once loved him dearly. It certainly is not impossible, thanks for mentioning it.

    Judy (8:46am) thanks your thoughts re the anti-GBC postings on the Townsville Baptist Church FB page, that they used to delete them but have left a few now. Maybe it was too cumbersome to keep checking and deleting them, and maybe people complained about the lack of freedom of speech too. I found the one poster’s warning particularly apt: “Others should be accountable with any money that is used to aid the alleged perpertrator and accomplices. Anyone wanting to donate…..be wary…..your money could be used against God’s will.” It appears to insinuate that churchgoers had been asked to donate money for GBC’s defence.

    Shadow (10:52am) Thanks for your very level-headed and informative post! I agree totally that lawyers seem to have little understanding of accounting, and that deliberately and deceitfully squirrelling away funds would certainly assist the premeditated motive motive aspect. It will certainly be very interesting to see what insights the financial angle brings to this case.

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  59. Hi there, I am no expert in the field of pathology, but i do know that if death occurred by drowning, it would be fairly obvious at the autopsy due to water being present in the lungs. They can tell whether or not the person was alive by inhalation of water, as opposed to any water being present post mortem.

    I personally think she was killed first and then her body was taken to the creek to be disposed of. The other alternative being she was unconcious and was dumped alive in the creek and drowned that way. Shocking no matter which way you look at it.

    Given that an unconcious person would be extremely heavy, it would be likely to assume he had help. The other alternative being removed from the vehicle at a boat ramp/launch and was dragged out straight into the water by a lone person. I don’t know the creek or anthing about that body of water, but she may not have been initially placed where she was found. So hard to speculate.

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  60. P.s I think if it was substance abuse, I think Love Chunks G would have one drug of choice and that would be cocaine. People in my experience who use cocaine think they are a cut above the rest.

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  61. Susan, you just reminded me of something. Shortly after Allison was found, I seem to remember reading in one media report that QP was searching a surrounding area that included Kholo Ck and 2 tributaries. It was mentioned that drag marks were found at one of the creek banks, but did not say which one. This might tie in with your 7:15pm theory.

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  62. The drag marks were at Ugly Gully creek. That’s not the real name but that’s what the locals called it who swam at the waterhole there. I can’t remember the real name but it had something to do with “ugly”, which was a misnomer, because on a summer day with a slight breeze it was like a piece of paradise. Ugly Gully was closed off to local swimming when the access land was bought privately in the early 80′s. The swimming hole was right next door/upstream to the Scout Camp. It runs into Kholo creek.

    I too have toyed with a GBC innocence theory. I gave up.
    If you believe he is innocent, put yourself in the place of the Defence Council. They will be sitting around a table pulling their hair out. What a mammoth task. Somehow they have to convince everyone that there is a possibility that someone else did it.
    Try it yourself. Come up with a credible Murderer other than GBC, and come up with a credible theory for Motive, Opportunity, and Means.

    Yes the Basis for the prosecution’s case is circumstantial, but that evidence is overwhelming.

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    • The police may have a screed of evidence they have not yet released. Its only when I have seen this evidence that I will be convinced and am happy to be proved wrong.There are a lot of theories but I am yet to see enough substance to fully convince me.

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    • The police may have a screed of evidence they have not yet released. Its only when I have seen this evidence that I will be convinced and am happy to be proved wrong.There are a lot of theories but I am yet to see enough substance to fully convince me.

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  63. The water in the lungs theory would hinge on the absence or presence of Chlorine in the water.
    Can be easily tested.
    Tap water is different to creek water, so if she drowned in a tub or a creek, it could be determined.

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  64. I had been wondering about the whole financial position of the BC crew and am not surprised to see investigations ongoing there. Initially, I thought they had a heap of money stashed somewhere (they still may)…. But it is making more sense now with the possibility of the motive being financial gain. OW practically begging for money via requests for donations seems to indicate they needed the money. I just can’t see them asking for money unless they really needed it…and if this is the case, it reinforces the theory money was short before. Will be interesting to see what comes out of this, that is, of course if we find out.

    Hmm, not sure about the substance abuse…personally, I think he looked too chubby :D I seriously think they all just bit off more than they could chew……time will tell.

    I must say, it is nice to have a single thread here again. Thanks Robbo!

    Gerbil hunting season, if you are about…..personally, I didn’t think you needed to justify yourself…..I look forward to seeing you around again some time soon.

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  65. Theorist I am still thinking Allison’s body was washed to it’s final resting place…..and I do recall reading about drag marks very early on, but from memory, it was from only one source (think it was QT or BT?….one of the two).
    I think the belief is, also from memory, from the bail hearing, that she was killed at the house?

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  66. Yes I agree with the theory that her body was washed downstream to the Kholo creek bridge by the torrential rain, and I did read the drag marks article early on. I remember they mentioned the name of the creek, I know that creek, but I can’t rememeber the actual name. I just wanted to point out that that creek runs along the border of the Tyamolum Scout Camp.
    Add 2 and 2 together and its at the bottom of the hill from the Scout camp at the bank of the creek on the Scouts land where the drag marks were found.

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  67. GHS & Capricorn,
    Please stay, without question your posts are reasonable, well considered, thought provoking, intelligent and more – http://aussiecriminals.com.au needs you, as we all do. Any posts that cross the line I put in a little box & give it a swift kick down the closest, flowing waterway. In other words I do not let them register or clutter my brain. We need you both. Please reconsider, please come back.

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  68. Hi Theorist, if you are familiar with the area, do you think it would it be a possible for a body to to be washed from where the drag marks were found at Ugly Gully Ck to the site under the bridge under Kholo Ck where Allison’s body was found – ie is the width and clearance of the creeks up to that point supportive to such a possibility?

    How accessible and navigable by 4WD would this area be at Ugly Gully Ck, especially at night? Would one be able to drive up close and then just have to drag an object some metres to the UG Ck, or would one have to stop far from UG Ck and thus have to drag an object a long way to it, which involves risk of DNA trail, drag marks etc, not to mention much more labour intensive and I imagine a less attractive option?

    You say the swimming hole was closed off to swimming in the 1980′s.Does that mean that generally only people (eg scouts dating back to the 80′s) who used to have access to it then would know this area, i.e. it is not used by current scouts?

    Would the disuse of this area mean if one disposed of a body there, unless unexpected torrential rains washes it downstream (!!), that it may remain safely undiscovered there for a long time? ….Unless the person disposing of it deliberately moves it at a later date (should eventual discovery be necessary for insurance payout for example)?

    Re your remark on GBC’s innocence, I too can not come up with a single theory to support this. You are right, the evidence albeit circumstantial seems overwhelming in favour of guilt.Time will tell….

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  69. Robbo – thanks for getting back to just one thread for serious discussions and the Lounge for whatever. Would it be possible to get rid of the Replies under each post.
    It is much easier to follow when a post just acknowledges the source point.
    eg: RIP A at 6:15pm – agree with you

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  70. Hi All and thanks for your kind words, I was touched. I have had time to reflect a little and time to grow a thicker hide and I am pleased to be back…
    I did some catch up reading today and BB .. your posts had me wetting my pants !!( not literally). So so pleased to have the new format and *** oops yes I guess technically I am off topic** he he

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  71. RIP Alison, I like the way you think.
    I haven’t been at that place since my teenage years. A lot of good memories. Google Earth show it as a paint ball venue now? So I would say there are many people who know the area, not exclusively the scouts.
    On the track down to the waterhole (back in the day) we would walk past the gate to the scout camp. I guess a 4WD could get reasonably close but there would need to be some lifting or dragging. Any DNA trail may have been washed away with the rain too.
    I don’t know the relative sizes of GBC and ABC but I used to be able to carry my wife a few hundred meters no problem (before I did my back in).
    That gate to the Scout Camp was always padlocked. I notice there are a few photos of the gate padlocked since the murder. I also read on one of the threads that one of the locals found the gate open on the morning after the disappearance. My original theory was based on GBC having a key to that gate, and if they find a key to that gate in GBC’s possession, then that would be another big piece to the puzzle.

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  72. I too have thought of the possibility of GBC’s innocence but like the previous posters I can’t come up with anything in his defence. The COD according to what was written in the media is as yet not known. I did read somewhere that GBC was issued with a Death Certificate which stated COD as yet to be determined. I know that in some instances there can be multiple COD. For example a person might have suffered a severe asthma attack causing asphyxiation which in turn caused a heart attack or stroke. Perhaps that’s the case with Allison. Which could be why there is a wait for the result of forensic tests. There is a possibility she was gagged and the forensic testing might have something to do with any evidence left in her mouth which may be able to be traced back to the offender. Just a thought.

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  73. I don’t think GBC had any good ideas on that night. He made a lot of mistakes.
    I think that Kholo creek was a hurried and unplanned alternative.
    The original dumping ground was at Creekside park at Rafting Ground Rd, but when Alison started screaming and rousing the neighbours the plan was scuttled.

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  74. Thanks Theorist! I agree, DNA would be unlikely to find after that much rain, but they must have been some drag marks, the ones they found, for them to still be visible after the rain. I guess we will only find out during the trial what the link, if any, may be.

    I remember the posting by a local about the gate being strangely unlocked on the morning of 20 April. Imagine forgetting such an important thing as to lock the gate again! Maybe the key got lost in the mud somewhere during dragging of the body. Or maybe QP would have found it somewhere in the car which they still have!!

    I’m pretty sure with the BC’s having such prominence in the scouting movement, NBC in particular but possibly both would have a key. If GBC had one, and it did not get lost on the night I doubt it will ever be found after all the clean sweeps of his home that had been done by the parents. And owning up to anything is not on GBC’s agenda.

    But if he did not have one, guess what the 1 min 23 sec conversation at 12:30am could possibly have been about: “Bwana ….er….I need your Tyamolum gate key – urgently….”

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  75. Jen, I’m sure QP knows a great deal about her injuries and possible COD. I think they are just dottiing all the i’s and crossing all the t’s.

    I am quite curious about the purpose of analysing his beard forensically, but there has to be a reason…golly I’m sorry I did not become a detective. Would like to be involved in nailing guys like this.

    Theorist I agree, the theory that she had blacked out from suffocation and he thought she was dead and tried to dump her at Creekside Park in Rafting Ground Rd (which would be more conceivable for her to have walked to considering this was the planned story), sounds very plausible. With her regaining consciousness there, and neighbours reacted to her blood-curdling screams, he had to quieten her immediately (screams muffled) and had to hurriedly change to an alternative dumping site – Kholo Ck area.

    I seem to remember the screams were heard around Rees Way about 11pm – is that right? If so, he would already have had to have a gate key on him then in order to gain access to the scout ground (maybe catered for a plan B?). Or he fetched a key from home or from Bwana then. Or he fetched Bwana to assist him, and the call to Bwana’s phone at 12:30am was made to EBC after the dumping, to reassure her all went well.

    Lots of possibilities here …..

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  76. Hi,

    I think the major hurdle for police will be :mens rea – the requirement of intention to kill her. IF they cant prove intention then all they are left with is manslaughter. The DPP will also be looking for ways to negate any defence such as self defence, accident and provocation… I think there is enough forensics linking him to the crime… just proving it was murder is going to be harder.. thats why they need the financial records… as that shows premeditation and intent. Whether she was dumped at one place or another doesnt effect the mens rea… infact if it was haphazard then this works for GBH and not against him.

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  77. I didn’t know about Rees way, but google Earth shows it right next to Creekside Park. This was all within the QP”s initial “Hot Zone” and search area.
    Apparently GBC was a contact person for the scout camps in the area. He probably had the key on his key ring. I went googling for contacts for Scout camps but the site that gives these contacts was unable to be accessed. Maybe that site was doing some editing and name removing?

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  78. You are most welcome, however I cant take all the credit, Yoshi said much the same thing about 2 says ago. Goodnight all

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  79. Thanks for the reminder C in C, but it seems to me there is little doubt about the intent to murder:

    The financials should yield ample evidence of motive to obtain approx ~$million.
    Would promising his mistress all his financial woes would be over and he would be with her on 1 July not be a strong contender?
    What about the phone calls to enquire about her insurance before her death and asap afterwards, even before she was formally identified?
    And googling self-incrimination before the murder?
    Not to even to mention his reaction afterwards (if one does not intend murdering someone you are remorseful and own up to the accident – not dump their body like a piece of trash and let thousands of people spend large amounts of time and $$ to search for them while you become an emotionless spectator!)

    None of these situations would exist if it was not premeditated, in my thinking.

    Do you doubt premeditation C in C?

    P.S.
    I thought about the possible reason for the forensic examination of GBC’s beard….I’m guessing those scratches on his face were quite deep, deep enough to pull out stubble root and all, and a bit of this had remained somewhere on Alliison’s body and was found. Needs to be compared with his beard – will be unique but due to the small size of the stubble will need specialist analysis……my theory for now. Any others?

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