04/02/14 UPDATE FOR DAY 2

ALLISON Baden-Clay went to see a family counsellor about her husband’s three-year affair with a staff member, a court has been told today.

Gerard Baden-Clay, charged with the Murder of his wife Allison Baden-Clay

Gerard Baden-Clay, charged with the Murder of his wife Allison Baden-Clay

The Brookfield mum also detailed her history of depression to the counsellor, the court was told at a pre-trial hearing.

The routine hearing is to resolve legal issues ahead of the Gerard Baden-Clay’s upcoming murder trial in the Brisbane Supreme Court.

Allison told the counsellor her husband Gerard’s attitude to the depression was that he was “over it” and that it had contributed to the affair, the court was told.

The court heard the counsellor later had a separate session with Gerard where he said he wanted to leave the affair in the past but reluctantly agreed to 15-minute discussions with his wife every second night.

Baden-Clay reported his wife missing on April 20, 2012. He has been charged with her murder and is due to face trial in June.

Relationships Australia counsellor Carmel Ritchie told the court the first session with Allison was at Spring Hill on March 27, 2012, and lasted about an hour.

Allison described herself as a mother of three who worked with her husband’s real estate agency four days a week, Ms Ritchie told the court.

She told the counsellor that after taking malaria medication on her honeymoon she had a “very severe reaction” and suffered chronic depression and “psychotic episodes”.

She had seen a psychologist during her second pregnancy and had been on and off medication ever since.

Allison said her husband had an affair for three years and at least partly blamed her depression, Ms Richie said.

Asked to describe her problems in a few words she told the counsellor: “Inadequate. Not good enough. Believe I let it happen. Gerard’s way is the right way. Gerard had an affair for the last three years. Parenting, Gerard criticises me. Fear that one day he will leave me”.

Allison told the counsellor she wanted to “work on me” and sort out issues with parenting, the court was told.

Allison found out about Gerard’s affair on September 14, 2011, Ms Ritchie said.

The affair started on August 27, 2008, four days after Gerard and Allison’s own anniversary, the counsellor said.

Ms Ritchie said Allison told her: “I confronted him. He is now honest and takes responsibility. He blames me for some of it, the depression.”

Allison said that two years ago on their anniversary she surprised Gerard by asking: “What’s wrong with us?”

She told the counsellor Gerard replied: “I’ve had enough. I want to leave.”

Allison said she put it down to a midlife crisis.

Allison said Gerard’s personality was “ambitious and leader like” and he had high expectations of her and the children, Ms Richie told the court.

She told the counsellor her father felt as though “he was controlling her”, the court was told.

In her case notes, the counsellor wrote her opinion that Allison was a “conflict avoider who has said yes too many times in the relationship”.

To Gerard, Allison was not the girl he married, while Gerard had changed to a “look after myself” attitude, the court was told.

Ms Ritchie said she told Allison at the end of the session she could bring Gerard to the next session if she wanted.

Allison said she did not believe Gerard would want to come.

However at the next appointment on April 16, 2012, both Allison and Gerard were in the waiting room.

Ms Ritchie told the court she took Gerard into her room on his own at first. She said she had planned to spend half the hour-long session with him and then see them both together, but the session with Gerard went for most of the hour.

“I was surprised to see Gerard there as well. That was because Allison thought he would not come,” Ms Ritchie told the court.

The session, at Kenmore, was four days before Baden-Clay reported his wife missing.

Ms Ritchie said she took a standard 60-second snapshot with Gerard, but he didn’t say much about himself personally, talking instead about his work and achievements.

The court heard that after further questions Gerard told the counsellor: “Allison does not trust me. She questions me. She says yes when she means no.”

He told the counsellor of Allison’s disappointment with her life and that he used to blame his wife for disappointments in his own life, the court was told.

He said he attended the session because Allison wanted him to.

He wanted to “build a future” with his wife and to leave the affair behind him and thought discussing the affair with Allison was a regression, Ms Ritchie told the court.

“He wants to get on with life. Wipe it clean,” the counsellor said she wrote in her notes from the session.

“He needs to accept seven or eight months is very early days yet and to ‘steel’ himself for the long haul.”

Ms Ritchie told the court she advised Baden-Clay he could not ignore his wife’s feelings about the affair.

“I spoke about the fact he did have to sit and listen to Allison’s feelings about the affair.

“I told him that he can’t put this in the past because for Allison that past is very much in the present.”

Gerard did not want to take the advice.

“Isn’t that regression? Isn’t that living in the past?” he asked.

They went back and forth until “eventually he agreed”.

Ms Ritchie said she told Gerard to listen to Allison for 10 to 15 minutes every second night. She said she “always” limited such talks because they were “highly emotional”.

Gerard’s role was to “simply listen … absolutely not be defensive” and at the end to express remorse if that was how he felt.

Ms Ritchie told the court she went outside to get Allison from the waiting room and apologised for taking so long with her husband.

“Her face broke into a smile and she said ‘I’m over the moon you have spent this time with him’.”

Ms Ritchie said when she was back in the room with both Baden-Clay and his wife she went over the plan for the 10 to 15-minute talks, which were to continue until the next session in a week or two.

“I saw her say to Gerard ‘I am over the moon that you have spent this time’. But it was a defensive, hurt way that she was saying it.”

Asked in court about Allison’s mood, she said: “I think she was very pleased to introduce me to Gerard. She was smiling.”

Ms Ritchie added that Gerard discussed his roles in the school P&C and the local chamber of commerce.

“For Gerard, his image in the community is very important…He believes he is a valuable member of society,” the counsellor said she wrote in her notes.

The next session was never booked, with Baden-Clay reporting his wife missing on the Friday of that week.

Barrister Michael Byrne QC, for Baden-Clay, put to the witness that Allison’s depression and early panic attacks went back to taking the malaria medication during her honeymoon and to her pregnancy with the couple’s first child, who was born in 2001.

Mr Byrne said between Allison’s discovery of the affair and the first session with the counsellor Baden-Clay had “reached the point where he was honest and was taking responsibility”.

“His attitude to the affair is to wipe it clean and get on with life. What she’s saying to you there was put the past behind them put the affair out of life and move on as a couple,” Mr Byrne said.

Ms Ritchie agreed Allison wanted to move on as a couple.

03/02/14 Not much to report from today’s hearing, day 1 of 2

ACCUSED wife murderer Gerard Baden-Clay returned to court in Brisbane on Monday for legal argument ahead of his upcoming trial.

Scratches on the accused, Gerard Baden-Clay.

Scratches on the accused, Gerard Baden-Clay.

The routine hearing to determine which evidence can be put before a jury is scheduled to run for two days in the Brisbane Supreme Court.

Dressed in a dark suit and wearing a tie, the 43-year-old former real estate agent watched proceedings from the dock.

The court heard from the pathologist who carried out Allison Baden-Clay’s post-mortem examination.

Legal argument centred on the admissibility of parts of his evidence, and that of medical experts who assessed scratches and other marks found on Baden-Clay following his wife’s disappearance.

The couple’s former family counsellor is expected to give evidence in court for the first time when the hearing resumes on Tuesday.

Mrs Baden-Clay, 43, was reported missing by her husband on April 20, 2012.

Her body was found 10 days later on the banks of a creek in Brisbane’s west.

The last court related update is as follows from back in December 2013.

The many GBC posts can be found here or here

A family counsellor can be called to give evidence at the murder trial of Brisbane man Gerard Baden-Clay, a judge has ruled.

The Relationships Australia counsellor had argued her conversations with Baden-Clay, 43, and his slain wife Allison, were confidential.

However, Supreme Court judge James Douglas on Thursday ruled counsellor Carmel Ritchie will be required to give evidence at a pre-trial hearing next year.

The ruling means the crown can call Ms Ritchie as a witness during the trial, which has been set down for June next year.

The counsellor spoke with Mrs Baden-Clay on March 27, 2012, and with Baden-Clay and his wife separately on April 16, 2012.

Baden-Clay sat in the dock during Thursday’s brief hearing.

Mrs Baden-Clay was reported missing on April 20 last year, and her body was found on the banks of a creek in Brisbane’s west 10 days later.

Baden-Clay was arrested in June 2012 and charged with murder.

He maintains he is innocent.

In an earlier court hearing, Relationships Australia’s barrister George Kalimnios had argued the Family Law Act prohibited Ms Ritchie giving evidence, and could claim privilege on the grounds of public interest.

But in his written judgement on Thursday, Justice Douglas said both arguments were misconceived, and there were no grounds to claim privilege.

“Even if such a privilege existed separate from the Act, the balance is decisively in favour of permitting access to the evidence for the purposes of Mr Baden-Clay’s trial on the charge of murder.”

Matters before the Court 3rd Feb 2014


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57 thoughts on “GERARD BADEN-CLAY Hearing 3rd Feb 2014-UPDATED

  1. I will be in and out all day ;( But he is only getting from 10 am until lunch break today as there is another customer slated in for the afternoon ;)


  2. All legal talk this morning re ‘what is admissible and what isn’t’ and whether the public can be trusted to know what’s going on ie. gagging the press.
    For heaven’s sake, don’t they have a rule book to follow? DPP and defence banter is a power struggle vying for top dog position, or are they playing to the media who are present?.


    • No Baden-Clay family in court, so at least no dramatics from OW. Just him in his usual checked shirt, suited, slim, trim and suntanned. Counsellor will be up for a chat in the morning.


      • (handbrake!) Trim & tanned????? Does this mean he is brave enough to work out or sit in the sun without getting pummeled? Can’t that natural sunlight be redirected into some solar panel elsewhere? lol Maybe he’s just prettying himself up for the boys? Thanks for report MM :)


  3. gee I just noticed one thing re making a reply. I wrote the above a few minutes ago and pressed enter, left the page to read abc website, then came back and it was still sitting in the edit box where I wrote it. Obviously DO NOT FORGET to press Post Comment Button below the comment box or it may disappear, if you leave the page assuming you have published.

    I cannot recall how long that has been happening, I now know what happened to a reply I also typed out today I think…i.e. typed it, pressed enter only, clicked on another bookmark elsewhere on web, there leaving what I thought was a published comment, unpublished and gone forever!

    Might explain a few problems of late.



    • ["Legal argument centred on the admissibility of parts of his evidence, and that of medical experts who assessed scratches and other marks found on Baden-Clay......"].

      Well that would take care of a good chunk of incriminating evidence nicely wouldn’t it? My money’s on FAT CHANCE!


      • I do hope you are absolutely right Spy Hop!! I think it will be a miscarriage of justice to ignore all this incriminating evidence upfront, eg those very obvious fingernail scratches that GBC sported hours after Allison ‘disappeared’. I have no doubt a clear picture will emerge from what is now a jumbled mix of possibilities, probabilities and facts. I do hope no evidence, circumstantial or otherwise will be ignored at this stage. We need to keep every piece of the puzzle at this stage – not throw some out on the assumption they do not belong to this puzzle. I think many of them do.


  4. Robbo, Just letting you and all the Aussie Criminals Community know, that for some time now I have also lost a large number of written posts after pressing Post Comment, and they have never appeared on the Aussie Criminals web site, and I not been able to retrieve them back to post them again. And as many of my blogs, mysteriously lost in translation are long and have named – names. I wonder who has removed them and for what purpose. Also It takes too long to have to – re-write them all again. What I have noticed :? The blogs or posts that seem to always vanish without trace, are the high profile criminal, whistleblowing subjects which I have wrote relating to Prisons, The Adult Parole Board and The Department of Justice or sensitive writings on some High Profile Crims, of late, The Melbourne Gangland War Criminals, both dead and still alive The CMFEU, Mick Gatto, Victor Pierce, The Morans, Tony Mokbell – All The 1%er Outlaw Bikies Gangs , The Mr Cruel, Derek Percy cases- Pedophiles and Sex Offenders and Many more high profile comments to in my often outspoken posts I have wrote in reference to Derryn Hinch and the Adrian Bayley Murderer-Rapist Case!……. Would it be at all possible that the Criminal Rights Lawyers in bed with the Government or Legal Justice Departments or Law Enforcement Agencies or Police and Prison Corruption are censoring and or removing posts they don’t like to see posted on Aussie Criminals for what ever reason, e.g Censorship. Because they can in fact force Facebook, to remove posts they think are offensive or legally defamatory – like they did during the Adrian Bayley Trial. Also even PM Tony Abbott, had a Youtube post removed because some people complained what he was saying was offensive. Its getting like communist China. So much for Freedom of Information? Make you wonder what Crims are getting there lawyers to gag many posts!………I have pushed Post Comment on many of my post, but they just disappear!……………………………..Also To Robbo & Aussie Criminals Community I am also sending this blog here as a test, to see if blog goes through and my computer is working okay, cheers!………..


    • Hi Steve, that’s not good mate, I know the effort you put into your comments. (not sure about you, but I’m a 2 finger keyboard warrior myself and take ages)

      I am and have been concerned for some time, as I have been blamed as in I delete peoples comments, which I rarely ever do unless from the author themselves. I have written to wordpress about this reoccurring problem and have not had a reply.

      I have posted plenty of sensitive stuff and it is still here untouched so I doubt outside interference. I have had emails demading removal of this and that and ignore them, I also got 2 letters from the VIC DPP last year re adrian bailey, but I ignored them as well.

      I imagine it largely impossible for outsiders to get into my blog and basically censor it Steve. The way wordpress runs this platform, the passwords and (recently) double protection for admin duties I have introduced an son on.

      AS a protection to you not losing hard work mate, do what I do making posts etc…and type your things out on a word processor program, word, notepad, many other free ones let me know I will fix you up) and save them on your own computer. Then copy and paste into comment box.Therefore is there is some problem you have a copy.

      Just be absolutely at ease, and know I do not delete comments or users. A few years back I did ask a few folks to leave after complaints , and ONLY after I wrote to them numerous times with my concerns.

      I hope the only reason will be a wordpress glitch in comments not getting saved/published and gets sorted.

      Cheers Robbo


  5. Former H M Penthouse, I really feel for you. I have read your posts for a long time. That said, I urge you to move on. There is no shame in admitting you have struck a rock that is impenetrable. I really think that life is like a chocolate malt…wait for things to settle and the dark settles to the bottom. Then, avoid the dark. There is so much good in the world if you choose to see it…and you don’t need to visit the dark side. Ultimately the dark side defeats itself.
    My interest in the BC case is more tied up with the point where light becomes dark and what we as a society must recognise as the markers.

    Liked by 1 person

  6. If any folks from Websleuths are reading this, please pass on thanks to your posters who are on the ground relaying info from court yesterday/today. Much appreciated :)


  7. Hi Chris, all I have heard today is the counselor has been questioned on the stand, it seems a media blackout might be in place as with this case you would think every word would filter through almost instantly from the court, so nobody can tweet inside, and nobody wants lo leave either in case they miss something I imagine, as it wont be reported…we all have to stay tuned, cheers


  8. Sorry my ‘sticky beak’ icon is hogging the screen… last night I re-read some court docs c/-Mountain Mist. Just to refresh: Autopsy report says no obvious injuries to Allison’s body that are normally indicative of a body being moved about in water were observed (hindered by state of decomposition). Noted that it was difficult to observe the body on site as it was partially under the bridge (he had to lean over). Also commented that he would’ve expected to see more notable injuries if she’d landed from the bridge above into mud. Offered 2 alternative explanations for this – could be that she made contact with water first or that her body was placed there by someone. Hydrologist’s report states that water level & movement in Kholo Creek during that time was not high enough to have shifted the body into the place/position she was found.


  9. Hi folks just letting you know I have updated the above post with today’s reporting on the second day of the hearing…Makes good reading


    • Makes me hate him more. He so just wanted to wipe his affair under the rug but at least we know that he did not really finish that affair so it makes his talk with the counselor one big, fat lie.


      • Hi ozfromoz, yeah

        He wanted to click his fingers and have the whole this vanish, amazingly his trouble did vanish, if only for 10 days, and he had more trouble than he could ever dream of.

        I just read a really good summary of todays proceedings on a breakaway site from here and commented what a great job it was. Seems i’m blocked from it now, all a bit silly really, seeing we are here for the common good.

        Anyway thats not my problem



        • This weekend, probably Saturday night 1st March, some lowlife scum have completely desecrated and removed all the flowers from Alison Baden Clays memorial site at the Kholo bridge where she was found. This has to be one of the lowest acts of vandalism. Where do these lowlifes get off in doing such a hideous act. The poor soul can get no peace even now she is gone. I hope these scumbags get their karma back somehow.


  10. I’m too busy to go site to site so if there is info that has not been shared here, it would be appreciated by peeps like me :)


  11. Goodbye. I used to enjoy this site for the lively discussion and informed debate. Sorry to say but it has degenerated into he says she says about the site owners and administrators. I’m voting with my feet and walking.

    The Shadow…over and outski!


    • Yeah it is a shame all the jabber new readers are seeing, it has to be remembered we have been like family here, I never like anyone deciding to leave, although I am looking forward to the rest of 2014 and fully running the show as before.I put some noses out of joint…FACT

      A site as big as this one has issues internally sometimes, and because of the anonymity that most folks prefer, things do get aired out in public. Not ideal but Just scroll past maybe? easier said than done I guess…

      Consider coming back in a while…thanks all the same, take care


      • Okay guys, so what is the go? Trying to find how the ore-trial panned out; is it finished; is it stalled but in-going? Just can’t seem to find much information. Can anyone help out?


        • Hey little Fishy, I’m sure the pretrial is done and dusted & the psychologist gave her information about Allison appearing happy Gerard turned up with her.


    • Hang around Shadow, I’ve noticed this site has settled down and getting on with business lately. It’ll be good to see the justice for Allison together. No trouble makers here now.


  12. Am I missing some posts or have things gone quiet?
    I find it bothersome that the word ‘psychotic’ has been used in court, and tracked back to malaria medication on Alison’s initiation into a ride from hell ie her honeymoon. My immediate thought on hearing this was that I couldn’t help but wonder whether right from those very early days, once the ring was on the finger and she as prey, had been captured, that it may have in fact been emotional trauma at the realization of the real situation, that triggered something along the lines of PTSD…. which has along the track been talked of as some form of psychosis. Of course, my thoughts are perhaps naive as I am neither a psychiatrist nor psychologist but a lay person trying to understand.
    I did a little search to learn whether emotional trauma can induce ‘psychotic’ episodes as opposed to drug induced. And yes it can. Therefore with the information gathered about individuals involved and the environment of her marriage, is there the possibility she wasn’t trapped and goaded into believing untruths.
    Reading of Alison’s concern that her husband might leave her, is it too far-fetched to then think about Stockholm Syndrome?


    • Good post Little Fishy I have a saying ‘crazy breeds crazy’. I’ve experienced a toxic relationship And I became just as crazy as the person I was with. Some people play mind games, have moods swings that can’t be determined & play the blame game. For Allison to have experienced that disgusting situation was terribly unfair. The depression would have been a normal symptom, I think.

      I’m trying to negate this new mapping of AC & I keep getting lost.


      • Tibby2 – thanks for your honesty – you are not alone here with your description of your past and no wonder we want justice for Allison :)


        • Chris, that’s the reason I’m hell bent to see the bastard rot.
          I’d also loooove to see Toni McHugh pulled over the coals whilst on the stand. I think she was the motivating factor in this crime & possibly knows a lot more. Bring on the 10th June, only 4 months away. The new information will knock our socks off.


          • Absolutely Tibby2 – McHugh probably was – the other woman is usually the one who enjoys the inflated ego/taking someone else’s man etc. in an affair ….. I remember early on, she took down her facebook page etc. because she couldn’t handle being humiliated…


    • Maybe just the systematic approach of domestic violence Little Fish – RE: Allison’s concern that her husband might leave……- people like that weasel step by step, take something of that person – slowly – methodically – until that person HAS TO depend on them….independence, keeping that person unemployed for financial dependence, your place is here etc…..then, you do feel you have ‘no way out’ – you can’t think for yourself and become totally dependant.


  13. Hey Everyone, I’m still here reading all the comnents, very seldom posting because I have nothing to add. It has gone a bit quite but once the trial starts I’m sure we’ll all regroup and have heaps to say!
    Good to see you back Robbo, hope alls well in your world.


  14. That dimwitted, inept Bruce Flegg is at it again. This time he has publicly defended a sports master from an elite private school who was sacked – after a thorough and fair investigation – for sexually inappropriate comments and gestures!!! I’m not kidding… This idiot Flegg seems to have a habit of defending despicable people… it really makes you wonder about this man… First he pays a very public visit to the Baden-Clay’s, pays homage to the big-game-hunter and that wench Elaine, then he gives a media interview which amounts to a character defence of his philandering pal Gerard (whose exploits he was clearly envious of)… Now, amazingly, he has spoken out in defence of this sacked sports coach, whose school is not in his electorate, or even the coach… What is Flegg’s problem? I know this man is dull, venal and mischievous… but what is his issue? The people of the western suburbs deserve much better than this corrupt, parasitic clown…


  15. Agree Flegg is a flog, but there must be more to the rowing coach, surely? It came down to one word, instead of using the word penis (as part of school guidelines) he used the term Wanga? Where they waiting for that moment to get rid of him “By the book?” who knows

    Must say as a nearly 50 year old I have never heard that term used to describe that body part. I have played footy for years, coached footy, have 3 boys and never heard it.Is it a QLD slang term?
    Here is a quote
    David Bellamy, one of Australia’s most respected coaches, was dismissed by Brisbane Boys’ College after telling rowers not to twirl their “wangas”: slang for ­penises.


  16. Not sure if I am talking to myself here, as in it is an empty house these days, the site is no longer used, etc etc but my thoughts today are with the Dickie family and how the 3 girls feel/process days like this.


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