Gerard Baden-Clay Trial-Day 8


There will be no court sittings on Monday as the jury is being taken out to the bridge where Allison’s body was found and to the former Baden-Clay residence. The trial will resume at 10:00am on Tuesday.

The Allison Baden-Clay Murder

The Allison Baden-Clay Murder

 

All previous threads and history including trial can be found clicking on link below https://aussiecriminals.com.au/category/gerard-baden-clay/

List of Trial Witnesses as they appear here

ANY EVIDENCE LIKE PHOTOS, VIDEO OR DOCUMENTS THE COURT RELEASES TO THE PUBLIC WILL BE PUBLISHED in the GBC Documents Page

There will be no court sittings on Monday as the jury is being taken out to the bridge where Allison’s body was found and to the former Baden-Clay residence. The trial will resume at 10:00am on Tuesday.

For an exclusive look at the sites the jury maybe looking at today head over to our Very Own photographer “GerryRocks” snaps here folks

The trial resumes on Tuesday 10am folks

Baden-Clay murder trial: Jury to see site where Allison’s body found

Updated 33 minutes ago

The murder trial of Gerard Baden-Clay trial has headed to Kholo Creek Bridge at Anstead in Brisbane’s west, where Allison Baden-Clay’s body was found in April 2012.

Baden-Clay, 43, a former real estate agent, has pleaded not guilty in the Supreme Court to killing his wife.

The body of the mother of three was found on a creek bank under the bridge, about 10 kilometres from the couple’s Brookfield home.

The bridge area will be cordoned off while the scene is viewed by the judge, jury and lawyers from both sides.

Jurors will be given a booklet of maps and photographs to compare with the scene and will be asked to take note of the distance between the bridge itself and down to the lower bank of Kholo Creek Bridge.

Jurors will spend about 45 minutes at the bridge.

They will be asked to look at the side access to the creek, as well as the creek itself.

They will then be escorted to Brookfield to look at the home where the Baden-Clays used to live in April 2012.

At the house, jurors will be asked to have a look at specific areas like the carport, the driveway, as well as where the bedrooms are in the house.

After that, jurors will also be driven around the neighbourhood and the bailiff will be pointing out to the jurors specific homes of neighbours.

There are neighbours who have given evidence during the trial about what they heard on the night before Allison was reported missing by her husband.

Justice Michael Byrne has told the jury the tour is not evidence, but will help them understand and interpret evidence.

He also warned jurors there is a memorial at Kholo Creek Bridge to Allison that was not there in April 2012.

Please note none of these photos maybe copied, shared, downloaded without obtaining my express permission. Any breach of this is a breach of copyright, i have no hesitation in pursuing any such breaches! All photos registered to member gerryrocks

Please note none of these photos maybe copied, shared, downloaded without obtaining my express permission. Any breach of this is a breach of copyright, i have no hesitation in pursuing any such breaches! All photos registered to member gerryrocks

Justice Byrne has told the jurors to simply ignore it and not to go near it.

Baden-Clay will not be attending.

Gerard Baden-Clay trial: Jury visits home, creek and bridge

June 23, 2014 – 3:37PM

Marissa Calligeros

Baden-Clay jury views creek

The 12 jurors involved in the Gerard Baden-Clay murder trial view Kholo creek where Allison Baden-Clay’s body was found and the Baden-Clay home on Monday.

The jury in the trial of accused wife killer Gerard Baden-Clay arrived at his former Brisbane home to find it a construction site on Monday.

The seven men and five women of the jury, as well as three reserve jurors, arrived at the alleged crime scene on Brookfield Road, Brookfield, about noon.

Mr Baden-Clay is accused of killing his wife Allison at the Brookfield Road property on April 19, 2012, and dumping her body on the muddy banks of Kholo Creek at Anstead.

The 43-year-old former real estate agent has pleaded not guilty to murder in the Supreme Court.

The jurors quietly filed into the former Baden-Clay home, where they were asked to take note of the driveway, carport, garage and location of the bedrooms, bathrooms, dining room, rear patio and garden.

However, the house has markedly changed since it was home to the Baden-Clays and their three daughters.

Allison Baden-Clay's body was found under the Kholo Creek bridge.Allison Baden-Clay’s body was found under the Kholo Creek bridge. Photo: Court Exhibit

A faded plastic bunch of yellow flowers and a plastic wreath hanging on the front chain wire fence were the only signs the house once belonged to the young family.

The once blue and white weatherboard property has been painted yellow and is now under renovation.

The site was crawling with tradesman on Monday, although work stopped temporarily for the jury’s visit.

It is understood the property will become a kindergarten, connected to the neighbouring childcare centre.

The jury spent about 25 minutes touring the former residence, in the company of the trial’s presiding judge Justice John Byrne, lawyers for the defence and prosecution, as well as court staff.

It is not unusual for a jury to visit alleged crime scenes during a trial. The excursion, called “the view” in legal parlance, is designed to help the jury better understand the evidence presented at the trial.

Car parked outside the Baden-Clay's home in Brookfield.Car parked outside the Baden-Clay’s home in Brookfield. Photo: Court Exhibit

Mr Baden-Clay did not attend.

Beforehand, the jury travelled by minibus to the bridge over Kholo Creek on Mt Crosby Road.

Kayaker Daryl Joyce found Mrs Baden-Clay’s body beneath the bridge on April 30, 2012, 10 days after her husband reported her missing.

Police closed the two-lane bridge to traffic as the jurors peered over the side to see the area where Mrs Baden-Clay’s body was found, comparing the scenery to maps and photographs prepared by the prosecution.

Meanwhile, media were kept several hundred metres away.

The jurors were told not to “approach or consider” a stone memorial erected for Mrs Baden-Clay on the side of the bridge, which has been adorned with pots of yellow flowers to match the mother-of-three’s favourite colour.

The group huddled close together on the bridge, as they went from one side to the other, although some jurors ventured towards a path leading from the roadway to the creek bed below.

The jurors remained at the bridge for more than 45 minutes, after being instructed to consider the creek area, its proximity to the Brisbane River, the surrounding terrain, the nature of the creek banks, the height of the bridge and the access to the underside of the bridge.

The jury was then driven past the homes of neighbours who testified about hearing noises coming from the Baden-Clays’ home on the night of April 19, 2012.

More than 50 witnesses have testified during the trial, which has entered its third week.

The prosecution has alleged Mr Baden-Clay was embroiled in an illicit affair with a former employee and under extreme financial stress at the time his wife disappeared.

His defence team has pointed to Mrs Baden-Clay’s history with depression and anxiety to suggest she took her own life.

The jury will return to court on Tuesday for more witness evidence.

– with AAP

Anyone needing support can contact Lifeline 131 114 or Mensline 1300 789 978.

148 thoughts on “Gerard Baden-Clay Trial-Day 8

  1. There will be no court sittings on Monday as the jury is being taken out to the bridge where Allison’s body was found and to the former Baden-Clay residence. The trial will resume at 10:00am on Tuesday.

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  2. Good Evening,

    Well this afternoon I went out with a couple of friends to Kholo Creek bridge to visit Allison’s memorial and to also take photos of her final resting place and surroundings. As some may know I’m a pro photographer by day / night. I thought many would appreciate seeing some photos from the area (from a photographer’s perspective). We also visited 593 Brookfield Rd and the surrounding streets and I took some photos. So much has changed at 593, it’s hardly recognizable from the photos seen so far. So I will upload them on here, once I speak with Robbo.

    Of course a visit to Kholo Creek bridge wouldn’t be without it’s surprises, well nothing ever surprises me haha. We rocked up and who should walk out from the scrub, below the bridge….GBC’s solicitor Peter Shields. Suffice to say he didn’t hang around too much longer, who knows how long he’d been there. Obviously preparing for tomorrow.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Hi gerryrocks, looking forward to seeing you photos. WOW !! what a surprise it would have been to see GBC’s Solicitor. Surely peter Shields wasn’t in his suit and tie to go bush walking, or was he ?
      How hard is it to get down under the bridge from the walking track Gerry ? not that I plan on doing it, I would find it all a little spooky and sad, I’m just curious.

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      • Hey Jessy,

        Initially it’s quite steep, very soft mud / clay,from the top of the path on the right of the bridge. Easy to slip and fall over, so I do advise people to take caution initially. I’ve taken some angles to show the steepness. Once you negate the steep part, of about 5m it’s easy walking under the bridge. Very surreal!

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    • Looking forward to seeing these photos, GR, thank you 🙂

      What a lovely surprise to run into a member of the defence team…. Hahaha. Was it awkward!? Probably more so for him than you. Lol

      Had you been out to the area before or was this your first time?

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      • This was my first time LJC2013.

        Pretty sure Peter knows me by face haha as I normally acknowledged him each morning of trial outside Court 11 during first week & half.

        The fact I had a camera on me might have spooked him. He does appear in one of my photos which you will see 🙂 He was not alone there were 2 females with him plus another man (whom I don’t recognize) who was carrying a box of stuff (perhaps doing tests). The females I would probably recognize if I did more homework, I might do that during the week 🙂

        Liked by 2 people

        • Hi Gerryrocks, thank you for the time and effort that you put into giving us so much information and insight. I look forward to seeing some of those pictures to get a sense of the site and how GBC did treat Alison in her final hours.

          But can I ask you, there has been much debate about whether Alison was thrown over the bridge to her final resting place or left else where. Forensics did say that they believed that Alison died where she was found and unlikely to be thrown off the bridge, how do you think she came to be where she was found? What’s your theory having been there? Look forward to your comments.

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          • Hi Halifaxfp,

            There was a doctor who took the stand who in his opinion said that if she was thrown over the top of bridge the body would have sustained more injuries, fractures. So he ruled out her falling from the top of the bridge.

            The police officer on Thursday, Sergeant Kathryn Denny, in my opinion, was specially brought in to show the line of the body verses the edge of the top of the bridge/ rails. Which I picked up instantly as you see Allison’s body lying there.

            Allison’s body was lying inside the right pillar (as you look at the bridge facing the city) (left pillar with your back facing the city) There is no way that her body was thrown over the top of bridge for it to be found in that position. As I will attempt to explain through looking at my photos

            https://aussiecriminals.com.au/2014/06/23/in-perspective-a-visual-look-through-the-lens/

            Have a look at Photo 12 & 15 (countdown the page in order) & see the top of the bridge and where the left pillar is her body was lying inside(to the right as you look at photos 12 & 15) of the left pillar .

            Now look at photo 19 & under the top of the bridge see the cement beams (photo taken between both pillars) the 2nd cement beam sits on top of the left pillar. Her head was in line approx with about the 3 & 4 beam with her legs facing down toward the rivers edge. Her body is at least 2m under the bridge.

            It’s very plausible that 2 people could have tossed her body (grabbing arms & legs) from the cement ledge underneath the bridge. Rather than risk dragging her body down on the riverbank and themselves sinking in the mud. It’s also plausible and the most likely scenario that one person rolled her off the cement ledge (as there’s about a 2m drop)

            The 64 million $ question is did person or persons assist. There was much focus you might recall after GBC was charged about the CCTV footage at the roundabout at Kenmore. What I found very interesting yesterday driving around was that the proximity of a certain person’s house to a main road along the way to Kholo Creek that it would have been easy to avoid any CCTV cameras.

            However, if the prosecution had evidence of this other person’s involvement you would think they would have been asked more questions on the stand. This is only my opinion. I think the police/ prosecution have decided to put all their eggs in the one basket and focus 100% on getting GBC convicted.

            Hope my explaination of the pillars and beams helps give you some perspective (it’s confusing talking left right, right left, so you might have to re read this a few times)

            Thanks for your kind words 🙂

            Gerry

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  3. Something I’ve been thinking about the last few days. In Court last week they said no blood was found in the B-C house except for in the bathroom on a towel, on a tap and in a drain ( most likely GBC form his cut hand and facial scratches ). No blood found in front yard or carport. However they did not mention anything at all about the back patio, or not that I heard anyway. Please correct me if I’m wrong re the back patio and blood or no blood.
    I just find that a little strange as some of the plant material found on the back patio was in Allison’s hair. I don’t think there would have been much (if any) blood around though as I believe she was strangled. I think the blood in the car may have been caused when dear Allison was being put in the back of the car and her head has hit the handle.
    Sorry for being so graphic and I feel rally bad and sad for talking about how Allison was murdered.

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    • Having now seen the steepness of the path I’m starting to subscribe to a theory, that he cut his hand trying to descend or ascend the path beside the bridge. As it’s steep and he might have gripped onto some of the dry dead shrubbery that exists on the right of the path & it slipped through his hands. (I took a photo of this shrubbery to explain what i mean)

      When you see the updated photos I have of the back patio that will give you some perspective with garden etc. House is really small width wise, but long length wise.

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      • Hi gerryrocks, thanx again for the pics and your awesome photography 🙂

        The point I’m trying to make re the back patio is they have mentioned all the other areas in the house and around the house as to whether or not they found/didn’t find blood, except the back patio. So did they find blood on the back patio ??? I sure hope so and DNA matches Allison.

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    • Jessy I know what you mean about feeling bad. Maybe it is the reality of such possibilities for some of us is too confronting.
      I found it interesting that in the autopsy report, the brain stem couldn’t be reported on. Then reading about ‘stuff’ (I am hopeless remembering terminology), between the something and the something may be indicative of a haematoma. I was particularly interested in that as I have previous experience where a person who experienced a haematoma on the brain after a fair smack to the head, also had vision issues then and after due to their stem also copping a flogging as a result of trauma to the head.
      Whoever killed Allison must be dirtying a lot of pairs on undies because it seems they are just slipping under the radar with so much of what has been investigated and discovered.
      I was thinking this morning that even if there is a conviction or someone is found guilty, it will just be one small part of this terrible tragedy that the Dickies have to deal with. I mean, for the rest of their lives and the girls and other family and friends, they will be haunted by their thoughts (feel bad saying that also because you wish it wouldn’t be so). Just the thought of dialogue that could take place as a result of the 3 girls and their emotions, questions, etc is frightening. Then again, I reckon Allison’s family is pretty special and strong and united and hopefully will manage better than some of us might.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Hi Jessy, your post just reminded me of something I saw in another forum re: her hair/blood that they found in the car. If the hair they found was blonde/bleached (especially if it was right down to the root), surely that hair in the blood had to be from that night of the 19th? Given that she had only just had the highlights added to make it more blended that evening?

      Additionally, they’d only had the car for 8 weeks and if it was 4-6 weeks between appointments, it’s unlikely that the hair had been there that long, consistently embedded in and attached to blood on the door. There was a photo on this other forum that shows the hair actually stuck in the blood (which wouldn’t happen if the blood was dry before she lost the hair).

      I hope that all makes sense!!

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      • Hi LJC, Yes it does make sense. I also believe the hair was from the night of the 19th April. Yes, the car had only been leased 8 weeks earlier. I feel so sad for the Dickies , the dear little girls growing up without their Mum and one day becoming mothers themselves and not having their mum there to seek guidance from or just a chat and a mum’s loving arms around them. Just to sad 😦 I sure hope the murderer is jailed for life, he has ruined so many lives by this terrible crime !!

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        • I feel the same way… Even at 32 I still need my mum! I’m praying with everything in me he gets convicted for his ‘alleged’ crime. I’m so pleased that the girls are with the Dickies, who seem like amazing, resilient, loving people… Can you imagine if the were with the Bwana Clan? shudder I haven’t seen any evidence as to how the BC Clan feel about their granddaughters. Has anyone else? It’s like they’re so concerned about GBC they’ve forgotten about the girls.

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  4. This is just a test
    BBCode
    [url=https://flic.kr/p/nM63FJ][img]https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3910/14293719040_ebe6255c65_s.jpg[/img][/url][url=https://flic.kr/p/nM63FJ]DSC_7540[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/people//]gedroc[/url], on Flickr

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    • Thanx so much gerryrocks, brilliant photography. I noticed the person coming from the bushes in pic 8 🙂 and a few people paddling down the river. Obviously the river is used quiet a bit which makes more sense as to why Allison was disposed there. If it wasn’t for all the rain that occurred whilst Allison was missing, I believe the body would have been found much earlier and the case would have been open-shut !!

      Liked by 2 people

      • The rain wasn’t the problem, her body was 14km’s away from the home that was the problem. secluded area, under a bridge, that was his plan to place her somewhere where she wouldn’t be found for some time.

        (Daniel Morcombe’s remains were about the same distance from place of abduction. The prosecution in the Morcombe trial was only circumstantial evidence plus the taped confession. He also thought it was smart to run a ‘no comment’ angle. Didn’t pay off for him, won’t pay off for GBC.)

        The BC’s defense so far is she was depressed, but that doesn’t explain how she was found 14km’s from home under a bridge. Every comment that GBC made to police has been proven in evidence to be false.

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        • Hi armchairexpert2, thanx for your post, it’s good to see how we all think differently. I differ from you in the respect that

          You say” his plan to place her somewhere where she wouldn’t be found for some time– I think his plan was that he wanted the body found very soon as He needed the Insurance money very quickly!!

          You say ” The rain wasn’t the problem ” — I think the rain was a problem, had Brisbane not had that torrential rain which occurred after Allison went missing, the creek would have been busy as it normally was with people paddling under the bridge and Allison would have been found much sooner which would have helped with the Autopsy, DNA and possible evidence of shoe prints if that torrential rain hadn’t washed them away and kept the usual paddlers inside. So I think the rain was a BIG problem.

          I believe as for the body being 14kms away and Allison jumping off the bridge due to depression has been proved to be WRONG as to many professional Dr’s gave evidence that Allison was NOT suicidal or depressed at the time. Then there’s the scratches on his face and body, the blood in the car etc.
          I think it all helps when we read all our Aussie Crims bloggers different views. I’m hoping next week we will hear more about Senior Constable Streeting’s ( from Forensic) find on the blood he found on the Towel in the bathroom which he cut the bloodied piece from the towel and sent it to Forensic, although I don’t believe the towel will prove anything as they can’t date blood and both ABC and GBC both lived in the house. cheers armchairexpert.

          .

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          • Hello Jessie
            The ‘blood’ evidence will be interesting.

            I’d like to read the actual words of STREETING, whether he said ‘blood’ or more likely…..’indications of blood’ before he sent it off to the Qld Health Labs. It’s one of those little tricks that the average Joe doesn’t pick up on.

            The Police Forensic people can only find ‘indications of blood’ (a bit like finding “Green Leafy Material” when they want to say Marijuana….but they can’t because they aren’t Botanists)

            I’ve got an ‘indication of blood’ on my computer table in front of me….a dark stain which is actually a coffee spill.

            The ‘indication’ is a long way from the ‘actual’.

            I’ve also got an ‘indication of blood’ in my bathroom sink. From where I spat toothpaste and my DNA into it this morning.

            I did wash most of it down the gurgler. 🙂

            Liked by 1 person

  5. That’s what I find curious. If it rained so much at the time what’s the big deal about the body being under/not under the bridge?

    Anyhoo, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Crown wraps up this week. My guess would be Thursday, if not much is happening today. Then, if GBC doesn’t give evidence the whole thing should be over the following week after each side sums up for a couple of days.

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    • Hi BR, the big deal is ‘that the body was placed under the bridge’ by SOMEONE !! the Lividity showed that was how the body was placed very soon after her death, ( so therefore Allison’s body hasn’t washed down from any part of the river. It was placed where it was found.

      Liked by 2 people

    • It’s important because it’s unlikely she was washed down to that spot so rules out that she fell in close to home and it rules out that she accidently fell off the bridge. It strongly suggests she was placed there by someone post mortem.

      Her jumper was covering her head (in a taking a jumper off sort of fashion) so again highly unlikely she walked or jumped herself.

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    • I think it is to do with the defence’s obvious suicide opinion. You don’t jump under a bridge. If I am reading gerryrocks properly, the concrete that Allison was found on was above water level so not washed to its final resting place?

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  6. On reflecting on my last post, the issue of the body being under/not under appears to be only a bit of padding. Which makes me think the DPP is ready to close.

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  7. But, the argument appears to be centered around directly under the bridge or a couple of metres away i.e. under the edge of the bridge. If the rain was ‘substantial’ at the time I can’t see how a couple of metres would be neither here nor there or the jumper being washed up over her head. It seems a natural part of the ebbs and flows of a running waterway to me. Anyone who’s ever done a Life Saving Certificate would know the weight and specifically the drag of clothes in water.

    I suppose it’d be handy to know if the jumper was tight or loose fitting. My guess loose fitting as is the fashion of the day. Especially if she was a little self conscious about her weight.

    As far as being 14k’s from home…a decent walk but nothing out of the ordinary especially if she had lots to think about.

    My general opinion of the assorted “Experts” is that they all gave their preferred opinion but as “Experts” have a habit of doing, easily conceded (sort of) to alternative opinions when it was put to them.

    The ones who count out of the “Experts” are the Forensic Scientists and they seemed to have two bob either way when push came to shove. The ‘others’ (Relationship Counsellers etc) are nearly always viewed by Courts as being somewhere marginally above Joe Blow giving evidence such is the weight of that type of evidence.

    I haven’t seen it, but I assume the Death Certificate has a cause being ‘unknown’ ?

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    • I think the logical reason her jumper is over her head is because a certain someone couldn’t face looking at her lifeless face! Also it could have been done to stop the bleeding.

      Her right side (if I recall correctly) was partly embedded in the mud. This leads to a possible explanation of her body being tossed from the cement drop.

      That mud on the riverbed appears to be quite soft, it would have been, in my opinion highly risky for a person to drag the body down to the bottom for fear of themselves sinking into the mud, making it messy for themselves and leaving a mud trail in their vehicle.

      What the prosecution were trying to highlight last Thursday in court from Sergeant Kathryn Denny was to show how the body is inside the right pillar, the pillar. The pilliar is at least 1m under the overhang of the bridge above. Making it impossible for her body to be thrown over the top, to land in the position it was. Check out my photos posted on here to see that. Her body would have embedded much deeper from that height. I believe hydrology report stated that in their opinion there was insufficient tidal water to make the body shift with any significance.

      Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions, it’s great to hear other people’s thoughts 🙂

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        • From memory Gerry, I don’t think we had a great deal of rain leading up to Allison’s death, however the week after it poured. Personally, I don’t think it would have been as muddy and slippery at the time Allison disappeared. We had a drenching in the area again saturday night, so today it would have been muddy again. I hope they take into consideration those factors. Though, I think perhaps they were more concerned of where the body was located?

          Thanks for all your effort in contributing photos and time to this case Gerry, amazing effort!! I haven’t had a chance to lookz at the photos, but will do soon.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Good point you raise Millie about that the path not being muddy.

            I reckon if this were the USA, you would have had prosecution do pre trial testing at the bridge using a dummy, both dropping from top of bridge, to tossing off the concrete drop off under the bridge. It would seem a practical and logical thing to present to a jury to help support or eliminate possible scenarios.

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    • Funny how you refer to the Joe Blows of the world and the value of their opinion, when it will be the Joe Blows who in fact make the final decision.

      Just my opinion, but EVERYTHING about this situation from words, to nuances, to not quite certain, to body language, to tidal actions, to lies, to ‘bones-of-one’s arse’, HAS TO BE IMPORTANT. Fingers crossed that the Joe Blows of the world are wise and make the appropriate decision at the appropriate time with all the information available to them.

      Gosh, if it doesn’t get a bit rough and tumble soon to extract the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth then it would seem either being a victim, or a perpetrator is no big deal. ‘Language most shows a man, speak that I may see thee.’

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  8. surely they aren’ ready to close. i don’t think they’ve done enough cross examination at all. it would need to be one hell of a sum up. alas, perhaps i watch too much tv and perhaps its not like that in real life…who knows.

    if i were a juror – without a reasonable doubt has ben established imo. they’ve offered no other reasonable explanation ie someone else killed her so other than their suicide theory there is nothing else to “explain” any of it = guilty

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    • Pinkshoes
      Jurys can do strange things admittedly but the Trial Judge will direct them as to the points of law that they must find to prove Guilt and for Murder the main element is “Intent” and I haven’t seen anything coming anywhere close to proving that. The Police probably should have charged him with Manslaughter if a barney has taken place over his affairs and he’s killed her during the said barney. The facial scratches certainly indicate that a decent blue is a probability.

      BUT….they didn’t and now they have to get up on Murder. Much harder with no cause of death, admission or previous violent behaviour towards her or anyone else.

      My opinion as to the Crown winding up is just based on what’s happened to date.
      The Police have given evidence.
      The family has given evidence.
      The assortment of “Experts” have given evidence.
      The Staff at the R/E Agency have given evidence along with friends/acquaintances.

      The stuff coming out now appears to be the “B” list, leading towards a “That’s the evidence of the Crown Your Honour”

      Could be as early as tomorrow or Wednesday…..but I might be wrong although the “A” witnesses nearly always come out first.

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      • p.s. Pinkshoes

        The witnesses can be subjected to 3 types of examination-
        1. Evidence in chief (their initial version)
        2. Cross Examination (by the other side)
        3. Re-examination by the side that called them (to clear up any ambiguities that came out in the Cross compared to the Chief….not to introduce fresh evidence)

        You are right, there hasn’t been much gruelling Cross. Which could of course indicate there isn’t much to gruel about.

        Also taking into account the witnesses to date have been called by the DPP (even APPS*), so any lack of “Cross” is on the part of the Defence.

        *Because of the way the evidence was going re the scream and the Defence locating APPS to explain it, she would have been slotted in by the Crown to show their impartiality. I’d imagine fairly begrudgingly though 🙂

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      • IF they choose to call them. Mainly they’d be corroborating witnesses to others, but as Pinkshoes has pointed out the lack of “Cross Examination” shows that the Defence isn’t overly concerned with the evidence to date….hence no need to introduce corroborating witnesses.

        In a Trial of this size everyone would get a guernsey….just in case. The guy who sat at the door while GBC was waiting to be interviewed. The guy who drove the car to take him to Indooroopilly etc etc etc. The guy who placed the vegetation in the Evidence bag, the guy who received the Evidence bag at the Exhibit Room….the guy he passed the Evidence bag to, to take it to Court….blah…blah…blah. It’s all of those Continuity of Evidence witnesses that will have to hand the guernsey in, because ‘continuity’ issues haven’t been raised.

        The list will be culled, simply because their ‘part’ was insignificant and everyone has to work to a budget as well as not raise the ire of a Trial Judge with time wasters.

        Time will tell. But a 4 week Trial should have the Crown closing within the next couple of days.

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        • Good point BR!

          Gee there was one witness called to stand (can’t recall which one) and I thought (upon hearing her testimony) why are you even giving evidence, it seemed pointless.

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          • Gerry
            Sometimes witnesses are slotted in because of their personal circumstances. Doctors and other ‘Experts’ are prime examples due to their busy schedule, so the Prosecution will get ’em in and get’ em out to keep them happy. The ‘also rans’ will sit around for hours in the Witness Rooms counting the swirls on the carpet.

            This witness you speak of may have had a sick child or any other reasonable excuse to ‘push in’ (so to speak), but it’s only towards the end of Crown case when the maybes will be told not to bother because their small bit part hasn’t been raised…..and won’t be, by agreement with the other side. (read Horse Trading)

            As I said it’s mainly the witnesses to prove ‘continuity’ of an exhibit, i.e. all of the sets of hands that a particular exhibit has passed through to show that it was dealt with to strict procedures and not left sitting unattended at Maccas while the half price Big Macs are being scoffed. 🙂

            Like

    • And if I were a juror, I would want to hear events from that night from the horse’s mouth, so to speak and would feel under fulfilled if the person charged with the murder didn’t speak… Very odd to me, if I were innocent, I would be bloody well taking my clothes off in the dock in an effort to insist that I be given the opportunity to convince others of my innocence.
      Cat must have got the tongue.
      Odd that while 4 different versions were given to different people by the accused, of the walking routes within the first few hours of Allison going ‘missing’, and we can’t know where to find her…. that his first call was just 15 minutes, I repeat, 1 5 M i n u t e s after her husband woke up, to his sister and within 45 minutes they had decided it wasn’t too early to contact the police. Recoculous in my mind.
      My husband would be ringing the police on a regular basis as I am a free spirit and I go where the wind blows me hence my time management is sometimes a little tardy.
      I think what scares the Living Jesus out of me is that if something so terrible, tragic, unfair, inhumane, and callous could happen to someone like Allison Baden-Clay who never harmed a living soul, what hope do the rest of us have.

      What price a life? I ask that because at this point in time, I think the proceedings have been pretty piss-poor but maybe I am naive in the machinations of legal wrangling and all that it entails. Is the truth really what the system is designed to find?
      Different horses for different courses, but I find it difficult to come to terms with the fact that truth and justice can be interpreted differently, depending upon which side of the fence you sit on. I also wonder how some of the professionals who choose these roles feel or justify their input when criminals are given reduced sentences, or no sentences at all and then go out and cause more harm and destruction to others by repeating their actions, or a version thereof. I don’t think we have to look back to far to see evidence of this.

      Like

      • Little Fish
        All good and well to jump the box and have your say.

        Balance that against a QC hammering you with questions for 2 days+ and if by chance you stuff up due to sickness, tiredness, mistaking the question or being just plain flustered, expect more because of it.

        By far, the best thing for a civilised society is the current system of the State gathering the evidence and producing it. If they haven’t got it they’re just engaging in a fishing exercise at great expense.

        Like

  9. I’m super fit and to walk 14km would take me 1 hour 20 minutes or so. If she were that fit (probably not) if she left home at 5am, she’d be back by 6.30pm. More so, probably take her 2 hours to walk that far. Didn’t he report her missing at something like 6.40??? No one saw her walking AT ALL. So that theory doesn’t work.

    Add to the fact that she’s found under the bridge, if she jumped herself and it didn’t kill her she goes oh no, well I tried to kill myself it didn’t quite work, I might just crawl under the bridge so no one can find me and perhaps I’ll pass away in time….yeah lets try that.

    That’s plausible…..NOT

    Liked by 1 person

    • I’d tend to agree, pinkshoes. Just as I was reading that I thought “if I was intent on killing myself, I wouldn’t pick a 14 (??) metre high bridge where chances are I wouldn’t be successful (As macabre as that sounds so my apologies)… Does anyone know what the weather was like on the morning she disappeared? (Apologies if it has been discussed before – I just can’t find it in the threads)

      Like

  10. If GBC dragged the body down to the river what happened to his dirty clothes and shoes? I imagine he’d have been a real mess. Has anything been mentioned re this?

    Like

    • Size 10.5 muddy asics shoes where located in the house, a few days after the house was declared a crime scene.

      Even at the top of the path and the steep slope it’s muddy under foot, mud stuck to my shoes yesterday very easily.

      Like

      • Hi gerryrocks, Didn’t the asis shoes came back negative to any plant or mud from kholo creek ? as did the wheel arches on the Captiva. The whole clan belonged to the scouts, so I wonder if Bwanna’s hiking boots were used. I believe all clothes and boots would have been disposed of very quickly just like Allison’s phone. Wasn’t there reports of police searching industrial bins near Coles ? I’m sure we will hear more about all this in the next few days.

        Great posts fellow sluethers 🙂

        Liked by 1 person

        • Haven’t read any where that says the shoes has been ruled out. Obviously this week we’ll know for sure. I’m hoping for an OJ Simpson glove moment (rather it works against the accused and seals his fate).

          Like

          • Just found this in bail application hearing-

            Mr Davis tendered a report to the court on a sampling of wheel arches of the Holden Captiva and clothing of Baden-Clay, including a pair of shoes, which showed no matches with soil samples taken from Kholo Creek.

            Justice Applegarth adjourned the court to 5.15pm to consider the application.

            Like

        • Yes, it feels like more than one person was involved. Strip off road side, someone else will handle the clothes, phone etc. Get back, hose car wheels, vac car etc…

          Like

    • Good point ML.
      In creek mud you’d be flat out keeping joggers on which would just get ‘sucked’ off your feet.
      The Scenes of Crime guy had to be ‘rescued’ by the Water Police after he tried to get down there…..in broad daylight and not carrying a body.

      GBC would have been covered in the goo from top to bottom and nobody has seen a goo covered guy.

      Liked by 2 people

      • damn…all these have come up while I was posting. Maybe I should stick to just reading :/ I posted from my phone earlier but it’s nowhere to be seen. I came home to helicopters buzzing around & then watched the jurors bus go past.

        Liked by 2 people

      • I believe it had been very very wet in the days between ABC going missing and body discovery. I’d like to know what the weather was like on the night of her disappearance and the week before. Perhaps nowhere near as slippery on the track. ??

        Like

      • I would have to debate that . The rain which had fallen in that area prior to Allison being found was remarkable, it rained for days and days, heavily…..creating these conditions AFTER Allison had gone missing.

        Cross examination by Danny Boyle concerning the officer being injured whilst at the creek:-
        In re-examination by Crown prosecutor Danny Boyle, Sen-Constable Huth said the area where the police officer was injured while trying to reach Ms Baden-Clay’s body was plateaued and there was a vertical drop between where she lay and the bridge.

        He said the police officer fell over closer to the water line and slightly below where the deceased’s body was found.

        Sen-Constable Huth said it would have been “fairly easy’’ to access the concrete platform above where the body was found.

        “You could get to that fairly easily, once you start negotiating past that you run into trouble,’’ he said.

        Like

    • If he had mud on his clothes they would have been thrown. Remember Daniel Morcombe’s killer threw his in a creek never to be found again. Is it possible the vacuum & hose NBC was loading in the car was his & he was taking it back home after cleaning mud out of the car & maybe off it? One of the police was quite curious as to why he’d backed the silver car back into the carport…that was the one he “searched” for her in wasn’t it?

      Liked by 2 people

    • I think it would be hard to hide the sound of a vac at 5 or 6am in the morning. Perhaps cleaned elsewhere or in garage though I recall seeing pics of garage full of stuff. ?

      Liked by 1 person

  11. Hi guys and gals. Frustrating not getting much feedback from the visits, I posted a couple of twitter pics floating around up top.

    I find it laughable the jury was told they are on a trip to see related sites and that this is not evidence and to IGNORE the Allison Memorial at the bridge because it was NOT THERE before (really?) Like that will not have any emotional effect on anyone seeing it….

    (A bit like that old courtroom quip “Jury are to ignore that last comment etc”)

    Like

    • I found that directive interesting also Robbo. It serves as a reminder to take a few quiet seconds each and every time I drive through there, for Allison. It is quite, um, can’t find the right word, but as we all used to fly through there without a thought, now with the changed traffic speed from 80 to 60, it is almost like ‘hark, who goes there? Whoever you may be, take this time to slow to show respect for Allison Baden-Clay, whose life was callously cut short, without rhyme nor reason and give thought to her three little girls especially, but all her family and friends.’

      Liked by 1 person

    • Loose clothing and water flow? The debate is whether it had been raining before, although I don’t think that creek has ever been truly stagnant. We do know that there was significant rainfall around the time though.

      Like

          • It hasn’t been given BR. Court documents are available to the public, like everything for a fee. I’m hoping this evidence will come soon, perhaps as a follow up to today? There’s a few documents that may lead to call the further witnesses we haven’t seen yet.

            I’m no expert by no means and obviously not as up on how things roll as you seem to be, so I could be way off….

            Like

            • Thanks Millie and Little Fish
              It seems that he’s saying that the water line wasn’t up to her at any time over the duration that she was missing….regardless of the heavy rainfall.

              I wonder what caused the very significant decomposition then?

              Still, I guess we’ll know if he gets called….or not.

              Like

              • Not too sure Br. Prior to the rain it was very hot for a couple of days after Allison went missing. From my understanding of what I have read regarding decomposition, the body tends to decompose quicker in the areas where there could be injury or bruising. I may be wrong….I think some parts of Allison’s body were more decomposed than others.

                Liked by 1 person

                • Yes, that’s what I read too Millie, that injuries decompose at a faster rate as the insects are attracted to these sites first. Sorry, that sounds macabre, but that’s what I read.

                  Like

        • So true Millie, I was reading all the Hydrology reports today. I must say some of it was over my head, just couldn’t understand a lot of it LOL. I understood the bits about the weather being dryer when Allison went missing, also about the high tides not being high enough to move her body, the highest tide would have only lapped a little at the back of her body. They had lots of drawings etc. cheers Millie

          Like

  12. There was a murder in America where the perpetrator murdered his victims while he was naked. Maybe GBC was barefoot when he supposedly dumped her

    Like

  13. I find some of the assorted ‘Memorials’ generally a bit tacky. Not the tasteful ones by actual loved ones, but the ‘hangers on’. I always remember the plastic flowers secured by a chain to the grave of the “Honeymoon Killer” wife (can’t remember his name….the Yank). The Father In-Law of the accused set up the surveillance with Deputy Dawg to catch him removing it….which he did.

    Plastic flowers & chain……tasteless, it should have been removed.

    I also remember a C-M photo in the early days of a makeshift ‘Memorial’ to Allison and a very touching tribute to her about how wonderful she was, what a great mother etc and the final line was…..”I just wish I’d met you” WTF !!

    I know the Dept of Transport is always battling highway ‘memorial’ sites re the state of them.

    Liked by 2 people

      • Little Fish
        The main thing that popped into my mind when I first saw it is the omission of any reference to his family.

        It appears that it’s more about the creators of the memorial than Alison.

        When their little girls are looking at it in years to come it’s not going to be helpful. I’d imagine that they love all of their relatives equally.

        So….no, I don’t think much of it for that reason. It could have been about Alison….not them.

        Like

          • BTW LJC2013 I have been meaning to say this for a few days.

            I love your blog and your updated avatar. I highly recommend it to our community, and after reading many posts of yours over the last few days, I have to say I appreciate your contributions here even more. Very switched on intelligent and independent lady! Not to mention the posts she has written like this one below.

            OMG it is too good not to have heaps of people appreciating her site so folks…GO check it out…LJc2013 has given us here great input and commitment. Go spend some time finding out what she has to share. A very good Woman!

            https://littlemisscuriousdoesarchitecture.wordpress.com/life-stuff/the-jodi-arias-trial-narcissism-and-the-lessons-we-should-learn/

            Like

            • Thank you so much, Robbo! I really appreciate that feedback… Sometimes the world of blogging is a lonely one but every now and again your posts can help someone and that’s what keeps me going 🙂

              Someone asked me tonight if I regularly blog about criminal cases and obviously (as you will have read) I don’t… But it would be interesting to have a look at over the Christmas break from uni?? (Architecture Studies consume me for 15 weeks per semester!!) … Let me know if there’s anything you want me to research or look into because I’m more than happy to do it 🙂

              Like

        • Oh I know me love! Rather than do my usual ’emotional reaction’ when a little wee fish is baited, I was playing the game and almost signed off a few hours ago with ‘enough pontificating for this evening’…. Just thought I would pop back in to see what direction things went cos I didn’t want to read anymore negatives.
          I always seem to end up in a bit of a biff, so I thought on this occasion to let the line run, so to speak. There are many wise, witty, articulate and informed decent folk on board who I feel have their finger on the pulse….. Not sure how to signal a wink, but if you can imagine one, then we will finish on the same page.
          I need to have my faith restored that we do live in a civilized society and not the jungle.
          Night night, sleep tight. I know I will as I have a clear conscience although I did swat a fly earlier this evening.
          Oh, and I had a brief look at a program tonight called ‘Children of Killers’ (or something close to that. Ironic timing.

          Liked by 1 person

  14. was there anything found/seen/evidence to come from the roundabout? nothing has been said about that. also, i thought someone saw 2 cars near the bridge that night…?

    Like

  15. Hi Jessy.

    Regarding GHS’s message: I see a pattern happening, too and GHS may or may not see the same thing.

    To GHS: I remembered you on here from pretty much Day Dot and was wondering if you would pop up. So glad to see you back! 😊

    Like

    • Thanx daydreamer and GHS, I read through all the posts and I could also see the pattern plain and clear. I could also see the timeframe. Before work, lunch break and after work.

      Like

      • aaarghhh mortally wounded…..the bullets are coming thick and fast at the messenger….

        A pattern developing?…… are you serious? It’s not a pattern, it’s a debate challenging what nobody else appears keen to do. The rest of the “Love Fest” I’ll leave up to others who enjoy or need that sort of thing. I don’t.

        My initial joining post asked Robbo if this was just an “Alison Memorial Site”, (because it sure does give that initial impression) and if it was I’d leave now (then) as I don’t want to offend anyone with robust criminal law debate. I was assured by Robbo and a few others that ‘everything and anything’ gets debated. I wasn’t told that I had to follow the herd.

        The ‘pattern’ on this site is the blind faith in what you’re reading about. I’m afraid I always rise to challenging ‘blind faith’….others don’t…so sue me.

        If anyone wants to challenge what I’ve got to say and correct me…..good.

        What about the ‘pattern’ of the bulk of the members on this site? Or is it just my ‘pattern’ that upsets the delicate sensibilities?

        As far as Jessy’s assertion that I only post ‘before work, lunch and after work’ (the inference of course being that I’m ‘one of them’….sort of flatters me a bit to think that someone thinks I’m part of a Legal team, but if anyone cared to actually look….if you’re bored enough that is, you’d find that my posts were all over the day yesterday. I think you’re also flattering yourselves a bit to think that anyone cares what is written on these type of sites. It’s a small Chat Site….it ain’t the Supreme Court. Robbos mates at the The Courier Mail don’t have their gun reporters writing and reporting on what goes on in here….sorry to burst your bubble.

        So……yes, I’m challenging the status quo…I really didn’t think I was hiding that.

        Challenge me back if you think I’m wrong and generate a bit of traffic for poor old Robbo.

        p.s. ‘Challenging’ isn’t……he’s one ‘o them…..burn him !!

        Like

        • Hi BR, please join us for day 9. I’m not sure what you mean by ( one ‘o them )as I really don’t think the Clays would waste their time joining AC. 🙂 I actually believe you are a previous poster who is trying to put the cat amongst the pigeons . Doesn’t really matter who you are, you are welcome to join us on day 9. cheers BR

          Like

          • Thanks Jessy.
            No, I’m not a previous poster (I know my denial probably doesn’t mean much though). I got here by just Googlin’ GBC to fill in my time and this site comes up towards the top. Sure, I’ve got an interest in the Law/Justice (who doesn’t……the bevy of CSI type shows on telly bears that out….as weird and wacky as some of them are).

            Anyway….I’m not that delicate if anyone objects to what I’ve got to say. Saves arguing points of law with the cat…..which she mostly wins !! 🙂

            Into the ‘big smoke’ this morning (Pop 3,500) for a haircut and a good cup of coffee…well, as good as a Pop 3,500 can make it. I shall try and log on again before the lunch break. 😉

            Like

            • I don’t care if anyone has a different opinion to me, the jury might even have a different opinion to me after hearing all the evidence. From the evidence I have seen and my gut feeling, I have formed the opinion that GBC is guilty. Even is he gets off that is no sign that he isn’t guilty, just lucky. I am hoping he goes down and if there were others assisting him, I hope they go after them now.

              Like

              • Logging on at (checking the time)10.30 EST…for Jessy. 😉

                Looking at the circumstantial aspects of it all, I also think he’s good for something. Most likely Unlawful Killing and then Interfering with a Corpse.

                This is just based on their assorted long standing issues….her anxiety and common old human behaviour when all of these things intersect.

                I just think ‘Murder’ was over reaching by the Police.

                Like

                • TY so much BR for quoting your time, sure you didn’t slip out for a ‘wee walk ‘ ?? 🙂 🙂

                  Oz, I believe many of us here all have the same opinion 🙂

                  Like

                    • Just so long as you remembered to wash your hands before handling your instrument. My concern is always the dialogue used on this site, and that it is respectful. EQ versus IQ. One day, some little girls may happen upon the opinions of strangers. A heinous crime has occured.

                      Everybody is entitled to their opinion, and I guess perhaps for those who have
                      observed and learned along the way after the murder of an innocent Jo Blow, are familiar with information that has been available for public consumption. Of course, as previously stated, perhaps there may be as few as two individuals, but maybe more, who know intimately what occurred to result in the death of a woman whose body was found discarded in the mud.
                      *********************
                      ” Professor Drummer, forensic pharmacologist and toxicologist, said the levels of the anti-depressant Zoloft in Mrs Baden-Clay’s system were not consistent with an overdose.
                      “I would have expected much higher levels in the liver,” he said.
                      “The levels I found did not lead me to think the drug had any contribution to her death.”
                      *************************
                      To my mind, we aren’t discussing a fictional situation or talking about ‘things’. Death of a family member or friend is devastating, and when the circumstances are such as in a murder, the ramifications are felt for looonnnnnnggggg after.

                      BR you mentioned that you hadn’t seen the death certificate to see what the cause of death was listed as, and with all due respect, I would suggest taking the time to read some of the documentation available to bring yourself up to speed. I feel you give a mixed message about playing the devil’s advocate or ‘the advocate of the devil’, as if you have taken the time to find your way here and post, then you might find it helpful with your own speculations. Television programs are not a good foundation upon which to work:-)

                      One would hope that in a civilized society, it is normal and what makes us human is that we would be profoundly outraged that a normal, everyday and sweet person could just disappear and then be found in such a state that her family were not asked to identify her body.

                      As an end note, I love all of the lively discussion that takes place here. Saves driving to the pub to chew it over and get picked up for drink-driving on the way home. Funny how the defence was a police officer and others I know who have been in the law game and had a career change in the police force. I wonder whether the grass has been perceived as greener on alternative sides, or felt they could be more effective swapping sides. Mmmmmm. I must ask that question.

                      Like

        • I don’t mind that you offer debate BR. I think a good debate can be healthy to the conversation – it allows people to reflect on different opinions. I think it is an immense opportunity for growth toward allowing others to see things differently. Even though we may not agree at times…I remain open to discuss whatever comes up if I feel drawn to raise my own opinions.

          Like

          • Totally agree Millie. Too often we get caught in the trap of seeking out yes men (and women) which can be just a bit mind numbing after a while.

            Like

  16. Professor Drummer, forensic pharmacologist and toxicologist, said the levels of the anti-depressant Zoloft in Mrs Baden-Clay’s system were not consistent with an overdose.
    “I would have expected much higher levels in the liver,” he said.
    “The levels I found did not lead me to think the drug had any contribution to her death.”

    ***Dr John said he found blooms of diatoms in the water samples he examined.
    “In this case there was a bloom [population explosion] in almost all samples of the water supplied to me,” he said.
    Dr John explained diatoms could be ingested in a typical drowning, adding that the presence of diatoms in a person’s lungs was “inevitable evidence” of a drowning.
    He then examined samples of Mrs Baden-Clay’s bone marrow and liver and compared the results with the water samples.
    Dr John said there was no evidence to suggest Mrs Baden-Clay had drowned.
    “If she had drowned in the water I would definitely expect to see diatoms. In this case I could not find any diatoms,” he told the court.
    “My straight conclusion is that … the subject concerned did not drown in Kholo Creek or anywhere. There was no evidence of drowning at all.”

    Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/gerard-badenclay-trial-live-coverage-day-9-week-3-20140624-3apn6.html#ixzz35XDsvfKA

    Liked by 1 person

  17. Afternoon all, I’ve had “issues” finding the latest comments, but yaaay here you all are. BR I like someone who speaks their mind by the way, I think we all so really. Are you ex QPS like me?

    Like

    • Hello Bellabrissie

      I heard Brian HAYES on the radio today talking about internet fraud and whatever you do don’t divulge anything to anyone over the net as they’re more than likely trying to rip you off.

      You’re not after my treasured Teaspoon collection are you?

      BUT…..it is nice to see you and look forward to your perspective on things. 😉

      Liked by 1 person

      • Ahhh treasured teaspoon collection eh? Ummm pass :p
        I have been working in a timeline theory about GBC’s movements from phone records but damn! Work and other commitments keep interrupting me. At this rate I doubt I’ll be finished before the end of this trial. I’m hoping to go into court on Thursday for a look-see/listen.
        I hope the PC get their claws out soon!
        Cheers BR
        P.s. Just some of the terminology you use prompted me to ask 😉

        Like

        • Bella

          I should have used ‘Perp’…..urrrrgghhh…. to throw you off the scent.

          Going to Court…a glutton for punishment. Take a good book.

          Like

  18. Honestly Little Fish…..that’s a bit rich considering the way you (and others) talk about GBC…the little girls father, who’s yet to be found guilty of anything.

    My comments about Allison only relate to what’s been given in an open Court.

    So….save your sanctimony…it doesn’t wash with me. 🙂

    Like

  19. I noticed Elaine is still wearing that purple number, geez you’d think people so intent on “keeping up appearances” would be conscious of wearing the same couture in such a public arena. Meoooow moving right along…
    Can’t wait to read from Gerry and LCJ? (Apologies if I got that wrong, I’m old and tired) after their court visit today.
    Best go feed the man
    Ciao for now

    Like

    • Hi bellabrissie 🙂 I have a zillion notes to write up after court today. It was a good day to go and I’m going to try and attend tomorrow and Thursday as well… So if you’re up late you might sneak in a read before bed if I get it done in time. The ladies sitting next to me thought I was there in an official capacity because I was taking copious amounts of notes… And I got to be Gerry’s pretend girlfriend in order to get a good seat…. Eventful day all round… Haha. Will get this written up ASAP 🙂

      Liked by 1 person

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